Hale Kannada ancestor of both modern Kannada and Telugu

[andhra_jp]

Raamesh Gowri Raghavan, who will be conducting an online course on reading and writing Brahmi, in association with INTACH Bengaluru, talks about the history and evolution of this ancient script

The mystery of Brahmi

The earliest known Brahmi inscriptions are from the edicts of Ashoka, the third Mauryan emperor of Magadha who ruled most of the sub-continent between 268 and 232 BCE. The emperor, who converted to Buddhism, left a vast corpus behind in Brahmi, documenting his perspectives on dhamma, ideas of governance, and efforts to spread Buddhism.

The beginning of everything

One thing appears to be fairly certain, though. Brahmi is the mother script for nearly all Indian scripts, including Kannada, which is both a language and a script.

“Kannada is one of the classical languages, one of great antiquity that had been around for at least 2,000 years,” says Raamesh. The spoken language, which belongs to the Dravidian family, evolved over four stages — proto-Kannada, old Kannada, medieval Kannada and modern Kannada.

The script, on the other hand, can be roughly divided into three periods.

“The old Brahmi scripts evolved into the Hale Kannada script, which, in turn, evolved into the modern Kannada script,” says Raamesh. Hale Kannada, he adds, is the ancestor of both modern Kannada and Telugu.

The evolution of the old Brahmi script into multiple other scripts, he says, was partly affected by the material on which it was written. Since most documents were written on palm leaves in south India, the scripts that evolved from Brahmi were more rounded and cursive. “Palm leaves don’t tolerate straight lines,” he explains.

On the other hand, in north India, people preferred writing on birch bark, which allowed more angular writing. “That is why the northern Indian scripts have straight lines,” explains Raamesh.

Also, in the absence of a printing press, writing was passed on from teacher to student, generation after generation. “As handwriting changed, the script also changed,” he says.

The modern Kannada script, for instance, looks nothing like ancient Brahmi, even though the Kannada script descended from it. Similarly, modern Devanagari (used to write languages like Sanskrit and Hindi), Punjabi or Bengali scripts look nothing like the ancestral Brahmi script, says Raamesh. “Over time, the original shapes and the memory of those original shapes were lost, and the inscriptions left behind of those times were forgotten.”

[adavilo_baatasaari]

VERY MISLEADING QUOTE and the HEADLINE.

It should have been clearly mentioned that it is about the script. Although the article clearly mentions Script,  the headline and the Highlighted lines speak as if it is the language.

Linguistic evidence wise Telugu is the first language that is formed even before Tamil and Kannada.

However archeological Evidence wise Tamil has the oldest literary evidence thanks to the Jain merchants that used Tamil instead of Prakrit or Sanskrit.

And Kannada evolved later from the Tamil branch.

Scriptwise Both Telugu and Kannada used the same script which was later named as OLD Kannada Script ( Hale Kannada script ).

[adavilo_baatasaari]

Tamil and Kannada politics is a big thing in those states often resulting in fanatical statements like these. Heard these from a kannada roomate of mine for a couple years.

Telugus are on the other side of the spectrum.  

Kalamalla inscription, the oldest inscription in Telugu language was lost for many decades. Everyone thought it was in Chennai museum but when an enthusiast looked up for it it was no where to be found. 

Good samaritans who searched in their own time found it after may decades lying on a temple premises as a stone, with much of the script faded away.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/andhra-pradesh/2022/Jan/09/first-telugu-inscriptiondating-back-to-575-ad-found-in-kadapa-village-2404759.html

[andhra_jp]

1 hour ago, adavilo_baatasaari said:

VERY MISLEADING QUOTE and the HEADLINE.

It should have been clearly mentioned that it is about the script. Although the article clearly mentions Script,  the headline and the Highlighted lines speak as if it is the language.

Linguistic evidence wise Telugu is the first language that is formed even before Tamil and Kannada.

However archeological Evidence wise Tamil has the oldest literary evidence thanks to the Jain merchants that used Tamil instead of Prakrit or Sanskrit.

And Kannada evolved later from the Tamil branch.

Scriptwise Both Telugu and Kannada used the same script which was later named as OLD Kannada Script ( Hale Kannada script ).

 

The Halmidi inscription is the oldest known Kannada language inscription in the Kannada script usually dated to 450 AD

Andhra Mahabharatam of Nannayya Bhattarakudu (1022–1063 CE), is generally regarded as the first Telugu literary composition (Adi Kavyam) and Nannaya as the first poet (Adi Kavi) of Telugu language

Even literature loo kuda looks like kannada has oldest literature bhayya ?

 

 

 

[adavilo_baatasaari]

Not for argumentative purposes but just if you are curious. I don't believe feeling superior in a language being older. but believe in preserving what we have.

What you said is True in some sense when it pertains to literary evidence. But that is not the entire picture . 

- You are comparing Inscription to Literary books. Telugu has inscriptions from around the same period.

- The oldest Kannada book discovered was from 850 AD not 450 AD, written by a telugu poet PAMPA who is considered Adi Kavi in Karnataka). Complete Telugu book discovered intact was not until 1000 AD as you mentioned.

Pampa has written Telugu books too afterall he is a telugu guy . The names and few poems of his telugu books survived on Pampa's tombstone by his brother but not the entire books whcih clearly mentions the literary tradition Telugu had.

His works are related to Jainism  and telugu works are not patronized by telugu kings  only Kannada works related to Jainism survived.

These facts often get twisted to suit one language is older than the other , which has political biases in both Karnataka and Tamilnadu.

A political attempt was made in Andhra Pradesh too during Telangana movement that Pampa should be the Adi Kavi and not Nannayya owing to Pampa's tomb in a certain location.

So yes, First Book in Kannada was in 850 AD while the same in Telugu is 1000 AD. But this doesn't prove Kannada is older than Telugu.

Theoretically the only way the evolution of Dravidian languages would happen is if  Telugu language formed much before Tamil-Kannada common language branch,

Through that Tamil-Kannada branch Tamil formed and Kannada evolved later.

Malayalam evolved directly from Tamil itself.

Scripts are a different ballgame however.

 

 

 

[Teluguredu]

Hale kannada cem from bhattiprolu script.

Also telugu is a little different from tamil and kannada .both of the latter are SDR(south Dravidian) while telugu is south central Dravidian.

 

[andhra_jp]

11 hours ago, adavilo_baatasaari said:

So yes, First Book in Kannada was in 850 AD while the same in Telugu is 1000 AD. But this doesn't prove Kannada is older than Telugu.

Theoretically the only way the evolution of Dravidian languages would happen is if  Telugu language formed much before Tamil-Kannada common language branch,

Through that Tamil-Kannada branch Tamil formed and Kannada evolved later.

Scripts are a different ballgame however.

 

16 hours ago, adavilo_baatasaari said:

Scriptwise Both Telugu and Kannada used the same script which was later named as OLD Kannada Script ( Hale Kannada script ).

 

Bhayya, in your own words you clearly said even in literature kannada 1st book was around 850AD and telugu 1000AD.. so oka 200yrs ala gap vundi kada between telugu and kannada..

Also even script wise both languages derived from old kannada script aneedi kuda most of scholars  willl agree..

So it looks like kannada language and script are older than telugu.. it does not prove anything just stating the historical facts

[andhra_jp]

Google search AI overview response

 

Quote

The Telugu and Kannada languages are believed to have originated from a common Telugu-Kannada script around the same time

The Kadamba script, also known as the Pre-Old-Kannada script, was the first writing system developed specifically for Kannada, and was later used to write Telugu. As the Chalukya Empire expanded into Telugu-speaking regions, the Kadamba script was introduced to Telugu, eventually evolving into the Telugu-Kannada script. Between the 11th and 14th centuries, the Telugu and Kannada scripts diverged from the Telugu-Kannada script, and both were standardized in the early 19th century:

• Kannada

  The earliest Kannada inscriptions used the Kadamba script, which later evolved into Old Kannada. The modern Kannada script took shape around the 10th century CE, influenced by the Grantha script.
• Telugu

  The Telugu script diverged from the common Telugu-Kannada script during this period. Telugu underwent significant changes between the medieval and modern eras, and is now the second most spoken language in India and the 15th most spoken in the world. 

   

 

[andhra_jp]

11 hours ago, Teluguredu said:

Hale kannada cem from bhattiprolu script.

Also telugu is a little different from tamil and kannada .both of the latter are SDR(south Dravidian) while telugu is south central Dravidian.

 

Kannada's earliest known inscription is the lion balustrade (Simhakatanjana) inscription excavated at the Pranaveshwara temple complex at Talagunda near Shiralakoppa of Shivamogga district, dated to 370 CE which replaced the Halmidi inscription in Hassan district (450 CE). A 9th-century treatise on poetics, the Kavirajamarga, is the first known literary work.

The earliest Telugu inscription, from Erragudipadu in Kadapa district, is dated 575. The first literary work is an 11th-century translation of part of the Mahābhārata.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages#Literature