Jnu Row: Rss Wants To Make India Hindu-Fascist Rashtra: Yechury - Ndtv

[tokkale]

I only asked about the basis of your generalizations because as you rightly said there is no data on caste based socio-economic indices and hence you can't base the whole argument on anecdotal evidence and the comments you hear/read on online forums. And what you term as "irrelevant" to the topic are definitely related to the subject. And I could say the same about you when you brought in the Muslim angle when at the very outset I told that I don't care about other religions and the primary discussion is on Hindu RW and to a very small extent "their" economic policies which are also "right of center".

BJP definitely has an agenda in not releasing the caste census ...i would be surprised if they did not.

 

Caste is a problem -- a Hindu problem and let them handle it. The so called "rationalists/atheists/bleeding hearts/left" should stay away from this. They are the ones who argue that Muslims should reform their own religion and outsiders should not tell them what to do/and also people who use reservations should also not be told how to make use of them properly its their prerogative to use/misuse it --and they jump into the whole debate using the caste discrimination in Hinduism as a fault line to show how upper caste hindus are the problem. Let the upper caste and lower caste hindus sort it out themselves and the upper caste politicians are realizing the need to reach out and be inclusive of the lower castes and it's high time they did. But the "outsiders" should stay out of it and stop preaching by taking moral high ground on everything.

Their agenda is exactly what you said at the end "get rid of the Hindu tag" -- ya so that the world can be a happy place where everyone is equal and no oppression exists.

And what is The decent argument that you expect the RW to make -- that which agrees with the LW narrative that "yes Hindu upper caste is scum" and we accept it -- again too cliched line thrown at RW. Let the RW decide what arguments/narratives they want to sell. 

 

 

[lazybugger]

yes. hindus are handling the caste problem. It is the upper caste hindus that have a problem with this handling and are resorting to calling everyone they don't like as 'anti-national'.

 

If you say that those who fight against caste shouldn't support fellow fighters on the muslim side, who are fighting for similar issues, you must be deluded. 

 

This is not the TG movement, where its upper caste protestors didn't care about any other issue, the minute they got TG, and even celebrated custodial killing by their govt. Forgot its leader's promise of a dalit CM. I suspect 'merit' was an issue. haha..

 

You don't get it. RW cannot sell a narrative to save their life.

 

Look at how many RW people are shouting 'anti-national' and celebrating the arrest of the JNU student leader. Here's what got him arrested for 'sedition'. Why is it wrong to call those who encourage such arrests 'scum'?

 

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160216/jsp/frontpage/story_69576.jsp#.VsQdC8uh2-L

 

I want to know what kind of nation worship they are talking about? If an owner doesn't behave properly with his employees, if a farmer doesn't do justice with his workers, if a highly paid CEO of a media house doesn't behave properly with the meagrely paid reporters, then what is this nation worship?

[lazybugger]

apparently giving anti-sanghi speeches is enough to call someone anti-national, and throw them in jail.

 

you seem bothered by muslim appeasement, forgetting that they don't make the laws in India. What's the percentage of Muslim MPs in India? Not even close to the percentage of their population.

 

you, and similar RW rationalists are simply scare mongering in the hope that one of your 1000 arguments stick, and you can build on that.

[tokkale]

Yes brand everything that doesn't agree with our line of argument as "invalid/scare mongering tactics/irrelevant whatever whatever" -- and simply circle back to "upper caste Hindus have a problem with dalits" line. And when the RW resorts to branding/labeling of any sort (anti-national is only one of them) like "Minority appeasers" then we shout Sparta ....yes branding and labeling is only a prerogative of the emancipated minds like Us.

And you really live in another world if you think just because there is no proportional representation in the legislature minority appeasement does not happen. 

And as I have been maintaining throughout this discussion it is all about "perception building" and the RW are starting to do it...the arguments they make need not 'stick' with your Target audience. They know who they are catering to.

And since you said "me and people like me in RW" -- you and people like you are dime a dozen in various forums trying the cliches one after the other to make RW give into your line of argument.

 

Rental ads is done to death BTW. But we will brand the upper castes anti-dalit because they don't rent out "Their OWN" property to dalits/others -- ya we don't care whether the same upper caste Owners do not in any other way oppress them on a daily basis and even help them if need be in small ways. Here we need Stats/data ...perception/anecdotal incidents don't matter because it does not support our line "upper caste scum is anti-dalit". Hehe...

 

And you quote The Telegraph .....

[lazybugger]

I'm not quoting The Telegraph. This is why you should read.

 

What I copied is an excerpt of the speech, translated in English, by Kanhaiya - the guy from JNU who got arrested.

 

Yes, I live in the world where people acknowledge that minority representation not happening is a problem, and talk about how to solve it. The world is called Canada.

 

what you call as minority appeasement is a different subject altogether. I agree with some of what RW says on that issue. But it is tough to agree when people are quick to brand someone a jihadi.

 

You keep building 'perceptions' that are nowhere close to reality. The only people RW will attract are those who are quick to brand others 'anti-national'. and act like a lynch mob.

 

Its funny you draw parallels to throwing people in jails, with branding someone as a Sanghi. Too bad RW sentiments were hurt, but atleast they don't have to rot in jails for giving a harmless speech.

[lazybugger]

Let Hindus deal with the problem  - is what you said.

 

How do you think it will transpire? Hindus won't magically grow a conscience and do away with the caste system.

 

if the fact that dalits who fight against the oppressive system, use arguments from the leftist dictionary, apart from the Ambedkar one, is what bothers you, I have nothing to say.

 

You call my arguments as cliched. What about yours? Actually, you don't have one, except trying to come up with counters to what I claim, with no stats/data.

 

so on what basis do you claim all is hunky dory and no one needs to fight anyone?

 

Just to protect your darling party, the BJP? or do you like to 'extrapolate' based on your individual experiences?

 

[lazybugger]

What's happening now is "Hindus dealing with the problem".

 

And it includes people like Maverick23 calling dalits dogs, and people like you defending upper caste hindus to counter the counter propaganda.

 

It doesn't change the fact that you guys are in the minority. Although one's with the power.

 

Lets see how long this narrative will hold when the economy tanks and lower castes are no longer swayed by the money.

 

Interesting times for India.

[lazybugger]

It looks like you want 'outsiders' to leave Hindus alone, but you won't leave dalits alone. won't leave them alone to defy Hinduism - a structure that spares them no dignity.

 

why? because we host these dalits on tax payers money in our institutes. So they can't fight the hand that feeds it.

 

see, this is the kind of RW arguments people make. They don't even realise Govt. money belongs to all.

 

It doesn't matter if Hindus are the highest tax payers. It only means Hindus are the biggest beneficiaries of the govt. Nothing more.

 

BJP govt. did a stupid move sending the arrogant and lying Smriti Irani to HCU, and now by arresting Kanhaiya. If they think they can get away with stuff like this, they must be smoking thing you are smoking.

 

[tokkale]

Again ---on this particular instance -- let law take its course -- no one in the last few years has been sentenced/convicted on sedition charges once the case goes thru all the legal proceedings (at least that I know of) I am sure even in this case He will be acquitted at least on the sedition charges.

 

But just by playing victims every time --In Rohit's case and now ---the anti-state elements cannot expect everyone to believe in their line of "we are for the oppressed".

And about all the people who are shouting 'anti-national' --- why so worked up about it-- all i am saying is everyone is branding everyone -- RW is "fascist/chauvinist/upper caste dominated/rigid and a 1024 more things" according to your folk-- but the moment anyone says anything about how "pro-dalit/pro-muslim" people are misusing the fault lines in Hinduism to spread unrest you and your ilk have a problem.

 

I did not say don't fight the Govt -- fight it -- but if you say fighting the Govt is same as fighting the concept of Nation-State then I don't agree with that.

When I said you live in a diff world - I did not mean literally -- Canada is irrelevant hence -- I meant you are far removed from the realities in that you don't think 'anti-national activities don't happen in the garb of "pro-dalit/pro-muslim" movements in Universities/other institutes.

 

I always maintained there is a big "caste problem" never said everything is hunky dory ---but the players who are claiming to fight this have ulterior motives.

I am not defending the upper caste hindus --- i am saying people with no love lost for Hinduism should stay out of this whole debate of "reforming the caste system". 

 

 

 

[lazybugger]

Whatever goodwill Modi built by mid 2014 is now gone.

 

I was his biggest supporter in 2014. Thought he'll bring in all castes together.

 

He has made a few cosmetic changes to the Indian tax system. I appreciate him for that. But his first anti-poor act was amendment to the Land Acquisition Bill.

 

Then one mistake after another. Now no one is even talking about what Modi's doing. Everyone's talking about silly things like JNU sedition case.

 

When its clear Kanhaiya didn't utter a single seditious word in his speech, why this drama from the central govt?

[tokkale]

Hehe ...if you think the JNU issue will help the cause of people like you then you must be enjoying your dose of weed/smoke or whatever that gets you high...

 

Kanhaya kumar/rohit and other scum like them don't have any love for the people they claim to be fighting for -- only diff between them and other politicians is they don't even have the guts to accept that they are manipulators.

 

[lazybugger]

Again ---on this particular instance -- let law take its course -- no one in the last few years has been sentenced/convicted on sedition charges once the case goes thru all the legal proceedings (at least that I know of) I am sure even in this case He will be acquitted at least on the sedition charges.

 

 

many people here, including yourself, seriously think that the JNU student did something anti-national. There's simply no case. There's no proof he did anything like that.

 

His entire speech is online. Look through it.

 

I think you'd still want him to go through the entire 'legal process', because he dared to give a speech, when he should be concentrating on studies. hehe..

 

The funny thing is the way central govt. reacted to this non issue and made this a big issue. The funnier thing is people defending the central govt. by calling that guy names online.

[lazybugger]

I don't have an agenda dear. I suspect you've never spoken to a leftist. I'm not one.

 

I am only questioning the logic of the RW now, because they are in power.

 

If you spoke to a leftist, the conversation would've ended 100 statements ago. and even you know that.

[lazybugger]

Hehe ...if you think the JNU issue will help the cause of people like you then you must be enjoying your dose of weed/smoke or whatever that gets you high...

 

Kanhaya kumar/rohit and other scum like them don't have any love for the people they claim to be fighting for -- only diff between them and other politicians is they don't even have the guts to accept that they are manipulators.

 

so now the argument has to shift to 'love'.

 

scared of manipulators from the lower caste, eh? Only upper caste are entitled to manipulate, I guess.

[ARYA]

@3$%