Calling secular siru abt trump

[k2s]

[Bhai]

16 minutes ago, k2s said:

 

[lazybugger]

4 minutes ago, micxas said:

 

Yes. mayawati victory will boost dalits lives. It won't lift all dalits lives up, but will lift more dalits, than in a non-mayawati govt. That's what parties do to their votebanks, help them. That's why they exist.

atrocity cases conviction rates are in single digit percentage. and not because they are fake. 

You keep trying to portray the bigots as victims of their circumstances, but I'm unable to give them that kind leeway. There are serious issues in the society, but you say people are more concerned with their own situations, before public good. I understand that.

Also Hindutva has no solution to this problem, and may make this problem even worse for the dalits, and even for these Hindus. The only way is to build a strong coalition against Hindutva and defeat them politically and help the disaffected Hindus later. Which is what Congress/Democrats sometimes do well. Reminds me of a discussion with my wife on why whites vote for Trump. 

anyway you convinced me that it is kind of pointless to bring up dalits in a forum populated by non-dalits with their own problems. I already kind of knew that, but did it anyway. I'll find better things to do with my life.

 

[micxas]

12 minutes ago, lazybugger said:

Yes. mayawati victory will boost dalits lives. It won't lift all dalits lives up, but will lift more dalits, than in a non-mayawati govt. That's what parties do to their votebanks, help them. That's why they exist.

atrocity cases conviction rates are in single digit percentage. and not because they are fake. 

You keep trying to portray the bigots as victims of their circumstances, but I'm unable to give them that kind leeway. There are serious issues in the society, but you say people are more concerned with their own situations, before public good. I understand that.

Also Hindutva has no solution to this problem, and may make this problem even worse for the dalits, and even for these Hindus. The only way is to build a strong coalition against Hindutva and defeat them politically and help the disaffected Hindus later. Which is what Congress/Democrats sometimes do well. Reminds me of a discussion with my wife on why whites vote for Trump. 

anyway you convinced me that it is kind of pointless to bring up dalits in a forum populated by non-dalits with their own problems. I already kind of knew that, but did it anyway. I'll find better things to do with my life.

 

Okay, I dont know why it is so hard for you to understand there are good people  out there in upper caste society who genuinely feel for dalits as well. If you choose to defame hinudutva or hinduism politically  to give uplift dalits you are making things worst for them. Society is not going to move toward non-religious stages and dalit being ending up in other religions will suffer. Part of the solution is integrating them with the rest of Hindus. 

 

[lazybugger]

57 minutes ago, micxas said:

Okay, fair so now you are going back to the roots and age old tradition of segregation in the Hindu society. Why don't you go further ahead and see this a result of misunderstanding of core Hindu system.. instead of that people  like you choose to stop where they are comfortable to take a stand based on the info. u  got and start abusing the Hindu society as a whole.. u choose to be with dalit side I/We are on neutral level.  The jokes you have been hearing in educated circle are result of lost opportunities I am pretty much sure. But the oppression  in general public is a very old system which we need to get rid of.  So how abt fine balancing,there should be some measures taken to please the general quota students who lost the opportunity to reservations like  waiving the fee,etc. this is just an example i can think of now...

Hindu society didn't conclude a shurda which is equivalent to what you call a dalit is based on one's birth. Shudra is someone who has evil intentions and anti-social. I know u r not interested in religious disc. i don't push it further and not agreed.

I don't argue with people who outright abuse in personal levels, the moment I saw a derogatory comment I will stop reading their posts so I really don't know who you are talking abt but I know there are people out there.

I think you confused between dalit and shudra. Its not that important anyway.

Inspite of what you say, I don't believe there are enough affected caste Hindus to make up the numbers of bigoted political ideology called Hindutva. If there were, reservations would've been overturned by now. 

personally, I'm a libertarian. or atleast used to be, until I realised it is a politically untenable position. I don't abuse Hindus, only make fun of them as a libertarian when I see another Hindu abusing dalits/muslims. Again, I agree I don't need to do it.

[lazybugger]

18 minutes ago, micxas said:

Okay, I dont know why it is so hard for you to understand there are good people  out there in upper caste society who genuinely feel for dalits as well. If you choose to defame hinudutva or hinduism politically  to give uplift dalits you are making things worst for them. Society is not going to move toward non-religious stages and dalit being ending up in other religions will suffer. Part of the solution is integrating them with the rest of Hindus. 

I don't assume what is good for dalit and what is not. dalits are perfectly capable of choosing their own political future. I was simply calling out bigots here. especially their hypocrisy on Hindu unity. and on nationalism when it comes to muslims.

There is no framework in Hindutva for dealing with these issues. Hindutva is right now just a hastily put together upper caste manual on how Hindu society could be governed. To not criticize it will mean accepting such third grade political ideologies into mainstream Indian society.

 

[micxas]

1 hour ago, lazybugger said:

I think you confused between dalit and shudra. Its not that important anyway.

Inspite of what you say, I don't believe there are enough affected caste Hindus to make up the numbers of bigoted political ideology called Hindutva. If there were, reservations would've been overturned by now. 

personally, I'm a libertarian. or atleast used to be, until I realised it is a politically untenable position. I don't abuse Hindus, only make fun of them as a libertarian when I see another Hindu abusing dalits/muslims. Again, I agree I don't need to do it.

There is no need to have a ideology as long as the hindu core values (not the caste abuse) are preserved. 

The system u dream of will eventually fail in the West once the supply demand pattens cause troubles to white supremacy or whatever is dominant in there . It starts with blaming illegals then non-immigrants then immigrant turned citizens.  Brexit, choice of choosing trump are just the beginnings..This is just my understanding the societies which go after money making will not survive in long run unless they have very deep values inherent. 

[Rangeela_Master]

[ranku_mogudu]

3 hours ago, lazybugger said:

I don't assume what is good for dalit and what is not. dalits are perfectly capable of choosing their own political future. I was simply calling out bigots here. especially their hypocrisy on Hindu unity. and on nationalism when it comes to muslims.

There is no framework in Hindutva for dealing with these issues. Hindutva is right now just a hastily put together upper caste manual on how Hindu society could be governed. To not criticize it will mean accepting such third grade political ideologies into mainstream Indian society.

 

qq.. with a hope  that you are knowledgeable Why were Dalits converted to Christians and Muslims and who got benefited with that?

[lazybugger]

6 hours ago, micxas said:

There is no need to have a ideology as long as the hindu core values (not the caste abuse) are preserved. 

The system u dream of will eventually fail in the West once the supply demand pattens cause troubles to white supremacy or whatever is dominant in there . It starts with blaming illegals then non-immigrants then immigrant turned citizens.  Brexit, choice of choosing trump are just the beginnings..This is just my understanding the societies which go after money making will not survive in long run unless they have very deep values inherent. 

How is this different from any ideology? The only difference is that, it does not pretend to be well rounded, as other 'ideologies', and is crude in its treatment of people who disagree with the 'core values'. e.g. how people are being branded anti-nationalists and are being beaten. 

Both Hindutva and western conservatism (ideology that fueled brexit and Trump) are money grubbing movements headed by elites that hate other liberal elites. The Hindutva you talk of (of the decent middle class people) doesn't deserve much respect too, because it has no solutions for the people it suppresses.

Atleast democrats and congress, inspite of their failings, tried to tackle issues like discrimination and poverty with serious policy measures, and were partly successful. It is obvious if you look at the stats. But human beings are not stats, and are living creatures with aspirations of their own, and that is why they lose.

That is also where problems with Hindutva lie. They are successful at exploiting the anger, but don't devise policies to assuage it when in power. Have Hindutva geniuses come up with a solution to the reservation issue with a suggestion of their own? No - income based reservation is such a bullshit idea. Nor does it have popular support. So they won't do it.

But quietly they will implement policies that will benefit the rich, and then cry about aspirations of the 'common man' when they are not in power. This kind of pseudo cultural bullshit peddlers are better than liberal money grubbers, you say?

about dalits, how do they benefit if they joined the Hindu mainstream? Will Hindu organizations stand up against the upper castes for the discriminations dalits face? They'll say wishy waashy stuff and ask dalits to get on with their life. Dalits can join Hindu mainstream only by losing their identity, and pretending to be uppercastes (assuming upper castes allow it). On the other hand, by refusing to join they can force the Hindus to repent their wrongdoings, and force them to treat them as they want to treated. It's not decade long project. One lifetime is probably not enough to change people's minds. You see, even dalits have aspirations, not just the middle class people. And not all aspirations involve buying a car, a house, a mobile phone. Some of them have to do with ensuring dignity for 'their' people.

I already know how conversations like these will end. I will call out middle class bigotry for what it is, and you've called out smugness of the liberal class. I agree with the smugness of the liberal elite, and have called them out many times for it. But I  find the bigotry of the middle class much more dangerous, when there is not even an attempt to ensure welfare of everyone they chose to represent. 

Liberals on the other hand, try and fail, because the society at large is not 'liberal', and people have personal anxieties about their well being. Liberals will learn from these losses, and attempt to create a better policies aimed at people they have not been able to reach.

I will appreciate it if Hindutva attempts to create European type welfare system in India, that benefits everyone. It is just unpardonable when millions of kids go hungry in India, the hindutva heads talk about Hindu culture. I don't find it any less horrible than the liberals who sip expensive wine while talking of secularism.

[Bhai]

[lazybugger]

4 hours ago, ranku_mogudu said:

qq.. with a hope  that you are knowledgeable Why were Dalits converted to Christians and Muslims and who got benefited with that?

dalit leaders are already pleading to their people to reconsider their decision to convert, and dilute their political strength.

[lazybugger]

7 hours ago, micxas said:

There is no need to have a ideology as long as the hindu core values (not the caste abuse) are preserved. 

The system u dream of will eventually fail in the West once the supply demand pattens cause troubles to white supremacy or whatever is dominant in there . It starts with blaming illegals then non-immigrants then immigrant turned citizens.  Brexit, choice of choosing trump are just the beginnings..This is just my understanding the societies which go after money making will not survive in long run unless they have very deep values inherent. 

The question is, who holds the levers of power when liberals are elected. Is it the wine sipping elite, or the populist liberals. if its the latter, they have real solutions to the problems they are trying to address. It is not often the right solution or even the optimum one, but they try. And inspite of what you may think, they do listen to all sides (including poor hindu side) because they don't hate Hindus. I'm talking of populist liberals.

On the other hand, I haven't seen a populist version of the Hindutva movement, that doesn't involve insulting muslims/dalits. They just don't exist. That is the biggest problem with Hindutva.  When in power, they simply listen to their trade unions or corporations, without any solid ideology to stand on and negotiate. They fail everyone.

[micxas]

23 hours ago, lazybugger said:

The question is, who holds the levers of power when liberals are elected. Is it the wine sipping elite, or the populist liberals. if its the latter, they have real solutions to the problems they are trying to address. It is not often the right solution or even the optimum one, but they try. And inspite of what you may think, they do listen to all sides (including poor hindu side) because they don't hate Hindus. I'm talking of populist liberals.

On the other hand, I haven't seen a populist version of the Hindutva movement, that doesn't involve insulting muslims/dalits. They just don't exist. That is the biggest problem with Hindutva.  When in power, they simply listen to their trade unions or corporations, without any solid ideology to stand on and negotiate. They fail everyone.

 

23 hours ago, lazybugger said:

How is this different from any ideology? The only difference is that, it does not pretend to be well rounded, as other 'ideologies', and is crude in its treatment of people who disagree with the 'core values'. e.g. how people are being branded anti-nationalists and are being beaten. 

Both Hindutva and western conservatism (ideology that fueled brexit and Trump) are money grubbing movements headed by elites that hate other liberal elites. The Hindutva you talk of (of the decent middle class people) doesn't deserve much respect too, because it has no solutions for the people it suppresses.

Atleast democrats and congress, inspite of their failings, tried to tackle issues like discrimination and poverty with serious policy measures, and were partly successful. It is obvious if you look at the stats. But human beings are not stats, and are living creatures with aspirations of their own, and that is why they lose.

That is also where problems with Hindutva lie. They are successful at exploiting the anger, but don't devise policies to assuage it when in power. Have Hindutva geniuses come up with a solution to the reservation issue with a suggestion of their own? No - income based reservation is such a bullshit idea. Nor does it have popular support. So they won't do it.

But quietly they will implement policies that will benefit the rich, and then cry about aspirations of the 'common man' when they are not in power. This kind of pseudo cultural bullshit peddlers are better than liberal money grubbers, you say?

about dalits, how do they benefit if they joined the Hindu mainstream? Will Hindu organizations stand up against the upper castes for the discriminations dalits face? They'll say wishy waashy stuff and ask dalits to get on with their life. Dalits can join Hindu mainstream only by losing their identity, and pretending to be uppercastes (assuming upper castes allow it). On the other hand, by refusing to join they can force the Hindus to repent their wrongdoings, and force them to treat them as they want to treated. It's not decade long project. One lifetime is probably not enough to change people's minds. You see, even dalits have aspirations, not just the middle class people. And not all aspirations involve buying a car, a house, a mobile phone. Some of them have to do with ensuring dignity for 'their' people.

I already know how conversations like these will end. I will call out middle class bigotry for what it is, and you've called out smugness of the liberal class. I agree with the smugness of the liberal elite, and have called them out many times for it. But I  find the bigotry of the middle class much more dangerous, when there is not even an attempt to ensure welfare of everyone they chose to represent. 

Liberals on the other hand, try and fail, because the society at large is not 'liberal', and people have personal anxieties about their well being. Liberals will learn from these losses, and attempt to create a better policies aimed at people they have not been able to reach.

I will appreciate it if Hindutva attempts to create European type welfare system in India, that benefits everyone. It is just unpardonable when millions of kids go hungry in India, the hindutva heads talk about Hindu culture. I don't find it any less horrible than the liberals who sip expensive wine while talking of secularism.

 

23 hours ago, lazybugger said:

The question is, who holds the levers of power when liberals are elected. Is it the wine sipping elite, or the populist liberals. if its the latter, they have real solutions to the problems they are trying to address. It is not often the right solution or even the optimum one, but they try. And inspite of what you may think, they do listen to all sides (including poor hindu side) because they don't hate Hindus. I'm talking of populist liberals.

On the other hand, I haven't seen a populist version of the Hindutva movement, that doesn't involve insulting muslims/dalits. They just don't exist. That is the biggest problem with Hindutva.  When in power, they simply listen to their trade unions or corporations, without any solid ideology to stand on and negotiate. They fail everyone.

ohh wait the reason why I said there is no need of any special representation is there are pretty much several out there already, we just need to find a common ground. Having siad that India is land of Hinduism and it has to be preserved to maintain its unique and great tradition, to give out to the world. i haven't read the post completely yet.. will try to analyze when i get a chance.  

[yomama]

vammo yenna sambario yenna paragraphs yo! bp to potav ra rey aravesh