Communal tensions in West Bengal - Dhulagadh

[lazybugger]

13 minutes ago, micxas said:

Yeah it was abused esp. by Brahmins since the formal education was held at the hands of one Varna. And some jaatis of sudras became kings thrown others into untouchables. But the solution is you correct or change what is wrong/ not suitable instead of getting rid of it completely.  

Sudra will remain a sudra even he become a king. I am trying to balance the societal system and Spirituality. But not at the cost of going against the foundation of itself.  

This system sounds like competing worker and trade union systems, for share of the power. Once one of the unions win (like trade unions in US, and worker unions in germany), it is very hard to unseat the victor, barring a revolution.

so one will be stuck with some castes in the same varnas for many many years. especially trader ones these days. forget brahman varna. it is almost useless now. with the kind of networks these castes can form and establish themselves as trader varna, how can they be defeated by someone outside of that circle? It sounds even worse than the current white boys club in the US.

[micxas]

1 minute ago, lazybugger said:

I think the foundation itself requires better articulation. The basic question remains, what is the need for varna?

to preserve the old order is not a good reason that can cut ice with may people, especially in the sudra category. Forget dalit.

If there is no concept of Varna there is no concept of rebirth there is no concept of Karma, rituals and ultimately there is nothing like aatman will remain in.  Not even the Yoga  So Hinduism will basically become something like I don't know may be one more Abrahmic faith or Scientology or disappear. 

[lazybugger]

3 minutes ago, 4Vikram said:

so then why asking Hindus to do that, guess Hindus also doing that for survival of religions. so point is no one needs to be asked for changed or do some changes, guess everything what has written in all the books or whatever they refer too say good only not anything then that

No. I didn't ask anyone to do anything. I just portrayed an ideal scenario. I even mentioned that it won't happen in real life.

I'm pretty sure Hindus cannot escape Islam through reactionary nonsense like Hindutva. If anything, Hindutva will pave the way to Hindus mass converting to Islam.

[lazybugger]

4 minutes ago, micxas said:

If there is no concept of Varna there is no concept of rebirth there is no concept of Karma, rituals and ultimately there is nothing like aatman will remain in.  Not even the Yoga  So Hinduism will basically become something like I don't know may be one more Abrahmic faith or Scientology or disappear. 

So that still puts brahman on the top of Hindu order. How is that a good thing?

[micxas]

7 minutes ago, lazybugger said:

This system sounds like competing worker and trade union systems, for share of the power. Once one of the unions win (like trade unions in US, and worker unions in germany), it is very hard to unseat the victor, barring a revolution.

so one will be stuck with some castes in the same varnas for many many years. especially trader ones these days. forget brahman varna. it is almost useless now. with the kind of networks these castes can form and establish themselves as trader varna, how can they be defeated by someone outside of that circle? It sounds even worse than the current US capitalist system.

No it will not. Because you give political power to Kshatriyas and that is judged only by Academic excellence of Brahmins with the help of wealth of Vysyas, work force of Sudras. I am not an expert but surely there are people out there, anyways it's an hypothesis under ideal conditions.

 

[lazybugger]

6 minutes ago, micxas said:

If there is no concept of Varna there is no concept of rebirth there is no concept of Karma, rituals and ultimately there is nothing like aatman will remain in.  Not even the Yoga  So Hinduism will basically become something like I don't know may be one more Abrahmic faith or Scientology or disappear. 

Anyway, majority of who you call as 'Hindus' wouldn't even have heard of these concepts. They just pray to their local god, or community god. 

All these wonderful metaphysical elements exists only to humour brahmins,and give purpose to their lives and afterlives. 

 

[lazybugger]

3 minutes ago, micxas said:

No it will not. Because you give political power to Kshatriyas and that is judged only by Academic excellence of Brahmins with the help of wealth of Vysyas, work force of Sudras. I am not an expert but surely there are people out there, anyways it's an hypothesis under ideal conditions.

 

dude, you just said that a shudra will still be shudra, but can conduct business. So his network is completely worker based ones. How hard must he try to impress those in the vysya varnas to even get a look in? How can he break an established trader network with his own idea without destroying the system?

I simply don't understand how this would work in the modern world.

[micxas]

10 minutes ago, lazybugger said:

So that still puts brahman on the top of Hindu order. How is that a good thing?

Because  it will put the society into order, people into discipline. If person A believes in Karma I think he will hesitate a lot before committing  a crime. I know you don't need all this but a strict law and order maintenance would make things better but what is wrong if we have both. after all you can't keep a ploice in every corner of  a street.

So  belief in Karma leads to Belief in Rebirth leads to selflessness. doing things without being attached to results, leads to harmony and realization of aatman. so the order is reverse you beleive in aatman and you do the things from scratch.

I am not preaching Hinduism here

 

[lazybugger]

7 minutes ago, micxas said:

No it will not. Because you give political power to Kshatriyas and that is judged only by Academic excellence of Brahmins with the help of wealth of Vysyas, work force of Sudras. I am not an expert but surely there are people out there, anyways it's an hypothesis under ideal conditions.

 

Come to think of it, isn't this how Indian society is arranged now currently?

vysyas controlling trade network, with brahmin castes switching their varna, and vysyas encouraging it. the other sudra castes need political power to get a look in to this network, and dalits are left with small things like selling 2rs idlis and calling themselves businessmen..

 

[micxas]

7 minutes ago, lazybugger said:

Anyway, majority of who you call as 'Hindus' wouldn't even have heard of these concepts. They just pray to their local god, or community god. 

All these wonderful metaphysical elements exists only to humour brahmins,and give purpose to their lives and afterlives. 

 

I agree, but they exist.

 

[lazybugger]

1 minute ago, micxas said:

Because  it will put the society into order, people into discipline. If person A believes in Karma I think he will hesitate a lot before committing  a crime. I know you don't need all this but a strict law and order maintenance would make things better but what is wrong if we have both. after all you can't keep a ploice in every corner of  a street.

So  belief in Karma leads to Belief in Rebirth leads to selflessness. doing things without being attached to results, leads to harmony and realization of aatman. so the order is reverse you beleive in aatman and you do the things from scratch.

 

I know this all sounds great in theory, but its even worse than the marxist doctrine I read when I was 15, right after I read Ayn Rand

People have evolved into newer type of nonsense, compared to these older ones.

I don't see people being incentivized to discipline through spirituality. Atleast not majority of people.

[micxas]

5 minutes ago, lazybugger said:

dude, you just said that a shudra will still be shudra, but can conduct business. So his network is completely worker based ones. How hard must he try to impress those in the vysya varnas to even get a look in? How can he break an established trader network with his own idea without destroying the system?

I simply don't understand how this would work in the modern world.

Thats complicated but for example remove the Varna here and a vysya who is out from the trade union of businessmen is trying to establish a business it will still remain very hard. So if Varana based discrimination is removed  from the problem you described the  level of complexity is same.

[lazybugger]

Yes, I agree Hindu spirituality is a great read. I've read Advaita vedanta, but only remember parts of it now. 

I remember explaining to my then christian girlfriend about the philosophy of duality, for more than 3-4 days. It was fun days.

[lazybugger]

3 minutes ago, micxas said:

Thats complicated but for example remove the Varna here and a vysya who is out from the trade union of businessmen is trying to establish a business it will still remain very hard. So if Varana based discrimination is removed  from the problem you described the  level of complexity is same.

Then why is he a vysya, if he's out from the trade union?

[lazybugger]

I've never been a practicing hindu though. I doubt if I even consider myself hindu now.