Communal tensions in West Bengal - Dhulagadh

[lazybugger]

4 minutes ago, micxas said:

Okay, for a second let us assume growing islamic presence will not cause any issues to Hindus, Can you show me a current day example which can be compared to India. 

To be honest there is nothing much Hindus can do to as long as the birth rate is greatly varies so if anything of higher impact can be done voluntarily it has to come from other side.  The best Hindus can do is be vigilant and keep trying to see if conversions  will stop at least.

Caste system in Hinduism is not a big deal, abuse is a big deal. The rituals ( mindless as per you) are done to get rid of caste and Body. And the Varna system is not completely birth  based.  I don't understand what you mean -in bold letters.

I think everyone else is also interested to be more specific worried about what will be in the system. Not a sharia, nothing like jijiya tax, nothing like not recognizing Hindu marriages and looting Hindu temples and burning idols. Need example Pak and Middle East.

why are you giving me another scenario, when I gave you one that agreed with your concern. I'm sure that there will be issues with Islam growing in India, and will have to be dealt with without resorting to reactionary Hindutva politics.

What I meant by those bold letters is, I can see a way for Hindus to organize and prevent Islam from making too many inroads. But that means, giving up the varna system (doesn't matter if varna is recognized by birth or not), and abolishing social hierarchies.

It is an almost impossible task in the modern world.

Hindus cannot stop conversion by fighting against conversion blatantly. The people who convert have no incentive whatsoever to remain in Hinduism. 

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Now if you insist on painting doomsday scenarios about Islam growth in India. I've already made it clear what i think about that. In the absence of institutions, not just muslims, even Hindus have no recourse to justice. So lets talk systems, rather than individual religions.

[micxas]

9 minutes ago, lazybugger said:

In India, muslims suffer from "baaga brathiki chedina community" syndrome. They are used to being the rulers, and are psychologically unable to accept Hindu resurgence.But this is only among the elite muslim community.

quite a significant section of muslims are recent converts <70yrs, probably of some lower caste, who converted because they couldn't stand Hinduism.

That is why, understanding why Islam is growing is very important to solving the problem. that is, if you consider that a problem.

Talking about Islam, helps no one.

Brathiki chedina vallu correct ee, but asalu ela vacharu islam emi ikkada puttaledhu and there was hardly 100-150 years of rule under Khiljis and Moghals where most of India was under  Islamic Rule. Moslems poverty ki natural and big families are reason Hindus did not do anything in particular which pushed Moslems into poverty. Region based country kooda ichesam so i think if they are more worried about this they should go to Pak unless they want to convert the land they live to Islamic which is what i have been talking about.

Conversion of people to Islam and chris. due to  practices like untouchbility is completely understandable and justified.

But thats the case of the past and I don't think that applies now even in the worst case scenario if he gets converted to islam andhulo kooda kulalu unnayi . Modern day conversions are result of Love Jihad and brainwashing young Hindu Kids who are confused.

[micxas]

22 minutes ago, yomama said:

Dont argue with paid trolls man. I think it boils down to his upbringing, which clearly reflects in the arguments. 

Trying to see if I was wrong

 

[lazybugger]

12 minutes ago, micxas said:

Okay, for a second let us assume growing islamic presence will not cause any issues to Hindus, Can you show me a current day example which can be compared to India. 

To be honest there is nothing much Hindus can do to as long as the birth rate is greatly varies so if anything of higher impact can be done voluntarily it has to come from other side.  The best Hindus can do is be vigilant and keep trying to see if conversions  will stop at least.

Caste system in Hinduism is not a big deal, abuse is a big deal. The rituals ( mindless as per you) are done to get rid of caste and Body. And the Varna system is not completely birth  based.  I don't understand what you mean -in bold letters.

I think everyone else is also interested to be more specific worried about what will be in the system. Not a sharia, nothing like jijiya tax, nothing like not recognizing Hindu marriages and looting Hindu temples and burning idols. Need example Pak and Middle East.

caste system is not a big deal to you, because you are not affected. However, caste system is one of Hinduism's uniqueness, and strength in the medieval times.

It doesn't scale well in modern times. Too much power concentrated in the top castes, and not enough trickling down. How do you solve it? Unless you solve that, you cannot solve the problem of Islam growth.

[lazybugger]

2 minutes ago, micxas said:

Brathiki chedina vallu correct ee, but asalu ela vacharu islam emi ikkada puttaledhu and there was hardly 100-150 years of rule under Khiljis and Moghals where most of India was under  Islamic Rule. Moslems poverty ki natural and big families are reason Hindus did not do anything in particular which pushed Moslems into poverty. Region based country kooda ichesam so i think if they are more worried about this they should go to Pak unless they want to convert the land they live to Islamic which is what i have been talking about.

Conversion of people to Islam and chris. due to  practices like untouchbility is completely understandable and justified.

But thats the case of the past and I don't think that applies now even in the worst case scenario if he gets converted to islam andhulo kooda kulalu unnayi . Modern day conversions are result of Love Jihad and brainwashing young Hindu Kids who are confused.

It perfectly applies to recent conversions to Islam/Xianity too. If not for reservations, majority of lower castes would have converted some time back.

So again, before blaming Islam, we must first look into where Hindus are failing to keep all hindus together.

They are not trying to convert India into Islamic country. Where did you get that from? They just live their lives like Hindus do. Except they have to deal with a ton of sh1t that Hindus don't have to deal with. Sometimes, they may lose their bearings, but that is understandable.

Even Hindu orgs dream of Akhand Bharat, doesn't mean it is achievable. you just laugh at them, go about your business.

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Muslims ki poverty natural kaadhu brother. poor Hindus converted to Islam, and remained poor. There's a difference. 

[lazybugger]

10 minutes ago, micxas said:

Trying to see if I was wrong

 

so you agree with his comment on my upbringing? lol. 

[micxas]

4 minutes ago, lazybugger said:

why are you giving me another scenario, when I gave you one that agreed with your concern. I'm sure that there will be issues with Islam growing in India, and will have to be dealt with without resorting to reactionary Hindutva politics.

What I meant by those bold letters is, I can see a way for Hindus to organize and prevent Islam from making too many inroads. But that means, giving up the varna system (doesn't matter if varna is recognized by birth or not), and abolishing social hierarchies.

It is an almost impossible task in the modern world.

Hindus cannot stop conversion by fighting against conversion blatantly. The people who convert have no incentive whatsoever to remain in Hinduism. 

-------------

Now if you insist on painting doomsday scenarios about Islam growth in India. I've already made it clear what i think about that. In the absence of institutions, not just muslims, even Hindus have no recourse to justice. So lets talk systems, rather than individual religions.

Varna system is soul of Hinduism no way of getting rid of it completely, solution is to make sure no one is above other in the hierarchy or  in sharing the power. If even if you do the new varnas will come out like political varna, cinema varna, etc.

Hindus can stop conversions if they teach what I said earlier. you follow yours and I follow mine and there is nothing that Islam Chris. offers which Hinduism doesn't have  so that itself basically answers your question of incentive. But Majority of Hindus lack in basics of Hinduism and cannot stand an argument with others. Fine example is Jakir Nayak.

So you again went back, the basic point is Islam/ Chris. have systems ready in their doctrines and it is a firm faith that they are faultless. So lets talk about how to get rid of them. 

 

 

[micxas]

4 minutes ago, lazybugger said:

so you agree with his comment on my upbringing? lol. 

No, I was referring to my understanding of islam.

 

[lazybugger]

1 minute ago, micxas said:

Varna system is soul of Hinduism no way of getting rid of it completely, solution is to make sure no one is above other in the hierarchy or  in sharing the power. If even if you do the new varnas will come out like political varna, cinema varna, etc.

Hindus can stop conversions if they teach what I said earlier. you follow yours and I follow mine and there is nothing that Islam Chris. offers which Hinduism doesn't have  so that itself basically answers your question of incentive. But Majority of Hindus lack in basics of Hinduism and cannot stand an argument with others. Fine example is Jakir Nayak.

So you again went back, the basic point is Islam/ Chris. have systems ready in their doctrines and it is a firm faith that they are faultless. So lets talk about how to get rid of them. 

How do you reconcile with this Varna in the modern world? What is the necessity to even categorise professions? So this system has outlived its utility.

Hindus cannot stop conversion. You cannot tell a muslim that I'll follow mine, and you follow yours. Him following his religion includes proselytizing about it to non-muslims. So he's being perfectly muslim and normal, when he is trying to convert a Hindu.

Again, what's wrong with conversion? Why not let people explore other religions and spiritual experiences. Why deny them that? 

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I went back where? you are saying Hinduism is this mythical flexible system, and others as firm systems? What do you want to get rid of? The attitude that 'my religion is the best' among muslims? You can get rid of that, only by exposing them to your religion. Mingling with them, without prejudice, etc. It can only be gotten rid of, by accepting a bit of them, and offering a bit of ours. What other ideas do you have?

[micxas]

13 minutes ago, lazybugger said:

How do you reconcile with this Varna in the modern world? What is the necessity to even categorise professions? So this system has outlived its utility.

Hindus cannot stop conversion. You cannot tell a muslim that I'll follow mine, and you follow yours. Him following his religion includes proselytizing about it to non-muslims. So he's being perfectly muslim and normal, when he is trying to convert a Hindu.

Again, what's wrong with conversion? Why not let people explore other religions and spiritual experiences. Why deny them that? 

-------------

I went back where? you are saying Hinduism is this mythical flexible system, and others as firm systems? What do you want to get rid of? The attitude that 'my religion is the best' among muslims? You can get rid of that, only by exposing them to your religion. Mingling with them, without prejudice, etc. It can only be gotten rid of, by accepting a bit of them, and offering a bit of ours. What other ideas do you have?

To stop the power going into a single Varna or a caste. The system in materialistic terms is almost gone but for religious/ spiritual reasons we need to keep it.  There you  divide your Vritti (Job) and Swadharama ( something like Sandhyavandhana)  differently, else age old systems like vedic schools system will go away, thats one of the example. You don't have to agree on this.

Bold - I will think abt it. Anyways this scenario  only helps  moslems/ Chris. think positively abt other faiths but that still will not stop them from plans of expansions/ Conversion. So what if  main stream hindus also start converting people like ISCON does these days ( of course that is not by allurement) 

 

 

[lazybugger]

Better thing to do for a strong and confident Hindu is to listen to Muslims, take the good out of Islam, incorporate it in their communities, and live as Hindus. Improve Hinduism.

There is no need to be afraid of conversion.

Ofcourse, this is an ideal scenario, and real life is more complex than that. Its also more complex than your simplified narrative about life of Hindus under muslims, just because Pakistan and Bangladesh are like that now.

[lazybugger]

2 minutes ago, micxas said:

To stop the power going into a single Varna or a caste. The system in materialistic terms is almost gone but for religious/ spiritual reasons we need to keep it. Else age old systems like vedic schools system will go away, thats one of the example.

Bold - I will think abt it. Anyways this scenario  only helps  moslems/ Chris. think positively abt other faiths but that still will not stop them from plans of expansions/ Conversion. So what if  main stream hindus also start converting people like ISCON does these days 

All these are reactionary movements, like Hindutva, which won't stand the test of time.

To an extent, I'm fine with Hindutva too, but not in its dalit hating, upper caste sucking current form.

[micxas]

Okay, just in case if you are thinking if there is nothing much Hindus can do what is the point of posting the thread at least they need to know this was happened due to religious reasons.

[lazybugger]

7 minutes ago, micxas said:

To stop the power going into a single Varna or a caste. The system in materialistic terms is almost gone but for religious/ spiritual reasons we need to keep it.  There you  divide your Vritti (Job) and Swadharama ( something like Sandhyavandhana)  differently, else age old systems like vedic schools system will go away, thats one of the example. You don't have to agree on this.

 

How would you divide the current society in varnas then?

1.political class

2. army class

3. entrepreneur class

4. worker class

This, with people freely moving into and out of classes?

[4Vikram]

11 minutes ago, lazybugger said:

Better thing to do for a strong and confident Hindu is to listen to Muslims, take the good out of Islam, incorporate it in their communities, and live as Hindus. Improve Hinduism.

There is no need to be afraid of conversion.

Ofcourse, this is an ideal scenario, and real life is more complex than that. Its also more complex than your simplified narrative about life of Hindus under muslims, just because Pakistan and Bangladesh are like that now.

can you ask anyone of muslim people to do the same man and then give an answer