Ilaiah views

[chittimallu2]

6 minutes ago, uttermost said:

Nah. like I said. reservation is not a poverty alleviation scheme. If there were enough dalits to fill 15% seats in a straight battle, there wouldn't be reservation for them.

There are not enough dalits to fill those seats, so personal anecdotes about a rich lazy dalit friend who got in through reservation just feeds into propaganda, if it is true in their personal case.

The truth is that dalits are unable to compete, and as a nation state, it is India's duty to lend them a helping hand. Reservation is a pittance compared to what businessmen swindle in the name of cooperative societies, and contracts that go nowhere.

Its obvious that middle class lack the courage to take on the bigwigs and hence complain about the weakest section of the society.

 

It is, whatever you saw in this DB for the most part...

why cant dalits compete? are you saying you dont see them going to corporate colleges? most (maybe all) middle class dalits go to the same colleges where the OC kids go to... no point in saying they cant compete... if you are talking about their financial status to pay the fee etc then yeah thats a socio economic topic and not caste... 

The middle class you talk about has everyone in it, all the castes not just dalits. 

My point is simple, all the things you mention are somewhat valid in a way but its not related to caste, its socio economic issue more than caste, unless its in a very very tiny villages in India where they make dalits live outside of the village... thats about it... and more than anything hindutva has nothing to do with it, and its followers is a very big sample

End Of

[uttermost]

10 minutes ago, chittimallu2 said:

It is, whatever you saw in this DB for the most part...

why cant dalits compete? are you saying you dont see them going to corporate colleges? most (maybe all) middle class dalits go to the same colleges where the OC kids go to... no point in saying they cant compete... if you are talking about their financial status to pay the fee etc then yeah thats a socio economic topic and not caste... 

The middle class you talk about has everyone in it, all the castes not just dalits. 

My point is simple, all the things you mention are somewhat valid in a way but its not related to caste, its socio economic issue more than caste, unless its in a very very tiny villages in India where they make dalits live outside of the village... thats about it... and more than anything hindutva has nothing to do with it, and its followers is a very big sample

End Of

okay. Their inability to 'compete' is only part of the equation. The more important reason is the existence of caste (which people like you can comfortably deny because you don't experience it). The presence of caste means no caste group should be left behind. If they were left behind, then there's no difference between colonialism and democracy.

eg. when population is made up of 15% dalits, and number of policemen from the dalit community (who got through merit) is 2%. Do you think justice can be done to dalits when there's no representation for their caste in the bureaucracy?

Also since you claim that class is bigger marker in India than caste, please know that the official statistics for intercaste marriage in India is 3-5% of the marriages. It means there's no intermingling of castes, and that caste is a barrier. Sure class is a barrier too, that can be removed by taxing rich people a lot, and spending on the poor. How do address caste issues?

This is the same reason, many advanced western nations (including US) have quota systems. They call it by different names. But they have it. You'll learn about it when your kid is ready to get into state university and how he has to perform many times better than a black kid (who's from the same economic background too).

It is the way of the modern world. Since socialism is rejected by the majority. This is the next best thing to keep the nation state together. Without which, it's free for all social darwinist paradise. That's not a nation anybody wants.

 

[uttermost]

chittimallu,

I dont understand how you define 'middle' class. but 'middle' class dalits do face discrimination and bullying based on castes. Unless they are extremely talented, like many times compared to their upper caste counterpart, they won't get their respect, because they'll always be dalits to most.

earlier it was - 'dalits dont bathe properly, so we wont touch them' argument. even though it is them who denied access to water to bath, and toilet facilities.

now it is - 'dalits are lazy and get into universities at our expense, so they are ' argument. even if the said dalit never used reservation, and is very talented at his job.

in both eras, neutral people never gave their voice to dalit emancipation, but joined the chorus when it came to knocking them down.

I know and understand that every man tries to feed his own family, and does whatever he can to make sure he stays ahead in the game. Dalits also use this same principle while taking what is offered to them.

It is a vicious circle - them taking the reservations on offer and upper caste people whining about merit, except the only vicious people in this circle are the upper caste people.

 

[uttermost]

To those who claim they have 'dalit' friends, are you guys in touch with the 'dalit' friend?

If yes, what do you guys talk about? Do you open up reservation topic in front of him? Lets say he agrees with what you have to say on the topic, would you agree if he harped on what Hindus did to them as much as you harp on reservation?

I'm sure you won't. You'll be irritated, and will stop talking to him. Because there's a basic power differential. It may not be because you hold your caste above his, but because you presume that you are privy to the majority opinion and have more right to dump on dalits taking reservation, than he does about caste Hindus atrocities on them.

That is the basis of caste. And as long as you hold on to it, you cannot claim that caste has disappeared from Indian society. It still exists.

That's why people get angry on me, put me on ignore or what not, but have no problems with posters who call muslims and dalits all names, and even call for their culling.

[uttermost]

btw, the earlier post was made under the assumption that your 'dalit' friend will agree with your anti reservation stance. However you may chose to pack it.

In reality, most self respecting dalits will not wish to continue the conversation beyond that point, unless they are under compulsion to be polite with you, personal or professional.

 

[Demigod]

5 hours ago, uttermost said:

If Hinduism evolved with times, India wouldn't be poor. Your friend is right and wrong.

Its not christianity that evolved with times, its the protestant faith that did. 

I think you got this wrong... how is poverty linked to religion.. in that case islam hasnt evolved with times in middle east but they are among richest countries in the world..it all depends on the available resources and some geographic advantages...and no diversity... if hinduism havent evolved with times India would have been hindu country with the minorities percentage going down like in our neighboring countries Pak and Bangladesh.. 

[Demigod]

5 hours ago, uttermost said:

I am not sure whether I should reply to you or not. But let me bite the bullet.

Yes. many protestant countries are poor, but by and large protestant flexibility towards exploitation of fellowmen is one of the main reasons for prosperity of European nations and the US. That's why I said protestant 'evolved', but not in a way that can be identified as moral according to their own scriptures.

Hinduism is definitely linked to poverty. Hinduism has built up super structures with caste that a regular person cannot overcome. Publicly listed company CEOs are 85% upper caste (not including shudras like Kammas). I can point you to the research article if you want to. I'm too lazy otherwise.

Kancha illustrates this well in his book (the one that raked up the controversy). Kancha speaks about the stingy nature of upper castes, and how money doesn't rotate, depriving economy of its resources. 

 

Bro dont get carried away too much by KI logic... if you take the total wealth in the world its with only like 5% of the population.. its same in India too.. because these castes or groups were close to kings and other rulers... its same all across the world... the only difference is in the other countries there are no castes but in india we do... we are all educated so I believe we should think with an open mind rather than getting carried away by some person view..

[uttermost]

2 minutes ago, Demigod said:

Bro dont get carried away too much by KI logic... if you take the total wealth in the world its with only like 5% of the population.. its same in India too.. because these castes or groups were close to kings and other rulers... its same all across the world... the only difference is in the other countries there are no castes but in india we do... we are all educated so I believe we should think with an open mind rather than getting carried away by some person view..

India has poverty rates at much higher rates than countries of same percapita. only African countries can be compared with India in many health indices.

So while the wealth distribution is uneven elsewhere too, their citizens are not dying of hunger, or suffering malnutrition to the extent Indians are.

Since upper castes hold all power in India, I blame them.

[uttermost]

4 minutes ago, Demigod said:

Bro dont get carried away too much by KI logic... if you take the total wealth in the world its with only like 5% of the population.. its same in India too.. because these castes or groups were close to kings and other rulers... its same all across the world... the only difference is in the other countries there are no castes but in india we do... we are all educated so I believe we should think with an open mind rather than getting carried away by some person view..

Being educated is the main reason we should not blindly blame this and that political party for India's ills.

India's ills are sociological and structural. India is definitely coming out of it slowly, but upper castes have to cede more and more power to other castes too, to quicken this process.

As long as that happens, poorest people's concerns will always take the backseat, while the rest get fancy metros, and airports for their 'tax money'. 

[uttermost]

13 minutes ago, Demigod said:

I think you got this wrong... how is poverty linked to religion.. in that case islam hasnt evolved with times in middle east but they are among richest countries in the world..it all depends on the available resources and some geographic advantages...and no diversity... if hinduism havent evolved with times India would have been hindu country with the minorities percentage going down like in our neighboring countries Pak and Bangladesh.. 

I think the original Chittimallu comment was about evolution of 'philosophy'. But my point is that, since education was restricted to the upper echeleons, there's no way this 'philosophy' would have trickled down to the lowest castes, so talking about philosophy is only a futile exercise when talking about current condition.

India is a Hindu country. You just don't notice it, because we are Hindus. If India is a secular country, someone like Modi would never have become PM.

ofcourse, constitutionally India is secular, but the national spirit of India is definitely Hindu.

[Demigod]

2 minutes ago, uttermost said:

India has poverty rates at much higher rates than countries of same percapita. only African countries can be compared with India in many health indices.

So while the wealth distribution is uneven elsewhere too, their citizens are not dying of hunger, or suffering malnutrition to the extent Indians are.

Since upper castes hold all power in India, I blame them.

Indian poverty rates and african poverty rates are higher because of the colonial rule bro.. it has nothing to do with upper castes and more over India is in transitioning phase..the west got so much developed by looting counties like India, whole of africa thats how they came out of poverty.. Even f you take USA it got independence more than 200 hundred years ago.. where as India is still young (just 70) we are going to reach our peak in 30 to 40 years(irrespective of the government BJP Cong..) where poverty will come down drastically. According to your logic if Upper Caste holds power then why are so many people poor even in those upper castes.. so stop adding caste to the power instead if we should look rich VS Poor then we can come up with more practical solutions... If we only focus on Castes(which are going to become irrelevant in the coming years) its like dog chasing its own tail...it goes nowhere but in circles... 

[uttermost]

Just now, Demigod said:

Indian poverty rates and african poverty rates are higher because of the colonial rule bro.. it has nothing to do with upper castes and more over India is in transitioning phase..the west got so much developed by looting counties like India, whole of africa thats how they came out of poverty.. Even f you take USA it got independence more than 200 hundred years ago.. where as India is still young (just 70) we are going to reach our peak in 30 to 40 years(irrespective of the government BJP Cong..) where poverty will come down drastically. According to your logic if Upper Caste holds power then why are so many people poor even in those upper castes.. so stop adding caste to the power instead if we should look rich VS Poor then we can come up with more practical solutions... If we only focus on Castes(which are going to become irrelevant in the coming years) its like dog chasing its own tail...it goes nowhere but in circles... 

Check the poverty rate of pakistan and bangladesh and srilanka. All these countries suffered colonial rule too.

'so many people' are not poor among upper castes. They may be poor when compared to other upper castes, but compared to dalits, they are rich.

[uttermost]

anyway, I'm done. You can declare victory.

I'm beating a dead horse too much. I won't touch this topic again.

[Demigod]

9 minutes ago, uttermost said:

I think the original Chittimallu comment was about evolution of 'philosophy'. But my point is that, since education was restricted to the upper echeleons, there's no way this 'philosophy' would have trickled down to the lowest castes, so talking about philosophy is only a futile exercise when talking about current condition.

India is a Hindu country. You just don't notice it, because we are Hindus. If India is a secular country, someone like Modi would never have become PM.

ofcourse, constitutionally India is secular, but the national spirit of India is definitely Hindu.

 bro cant agree with your logic.. if you think Modi became PM with such huge majority only with hindu votes.. there is nothing I can discuss about..one final thought India is the most most most culturally and religious diverse nation on the planet.. and is developing at a quick pace with so much diversity....only because its Hindu majority...infact the whole world is surprised how this is happening... the answer is coz its hindu majority and as far as I know a Hindu is the most secular person in the world..and I rest my discussion here and I am out..

[johnubhai_01]

one of the finest a$$holes on the earth,

rupai upayogam ledu. straight ga oppukunnadu Xnity funds vasthunnai ani. enduku theesukuntunnav ante.. vallu isthunnaru so theesukuntunna antunnadu ee bazaar kukka