India's air defence

[futureofandhra]

5 minutes ago, pakeer_saab said:

weak antene kada we can strengthen it

what you need to know is it didnt become weak in 2014

well its 5 years from 2019 though

what improvements are done by pushpams in those 5 years ?

congis delayed things definitely they are the biggest culprits

[futureofandhra]

On 9/2/2022 at 3:09 PM, pichhipullayya said:

Bro, JF17 fifth gen ani vallu cheptunnaru.. no one really knows, these are not not battle tested.. we need to take most of the defense claims with a pinch of salt..

Cold war Era lo Mig 24 ki tega bhaya pade vallu westren countries later they figured it out its nothing to fear for.

Also most important is not the machine but the pilot in it.

Abhinandan is an example he shot down a newer aircraft with a much older one.

Indian forces undergo rigorous training regimes unlike our neighbors. Out forces may not have best weaponry but people are good passionate and do not fight under fear like neighbors.

we can always find faults with govts but our forces are dedicated and good.

I have no doubt on those forces they are fighting terrorism day n night to keep families safe

am pointing about technology deficit

pakis have f16s everyone knows that how come can they can still use old jets

india is lacking technology by all means

india does not have world class company that manufactures goods

china korea japan germany all have such level in manufacturing

china is on leap bounds in terms of technology

 

 

 

[pakeer_saab]

8 minutes ago, futureofandhra said:

well its 5 years from 2019 though

what improvements are done by pushpams in those 5 years ?

congis delayed things definitely they are the biggest culprits

same pushpams rafale deal ni some form lo wrap up cheste scam annaru, it is for this decision we have at least 36 fighters ready

pulkams are interesting characters, their interest in state interests far exceed their interest in nation, ee process lo they had to even change diapers of Rahul Gandhi

[pakeer_saab]

3 minutes ago, futureofandhra said:

I have no doubt on those forces they are fighting terrorism day n night to keep families safe

am pointing about technology deficit

pakis have f16s everyone knows that how come can they can still use old jets

india is lacking technology by all means

india does not have world class company that manufactures goods

china korea japan germany all have such level in manufacturing

china is on leap bounds in terms of technology

 

 

 

all those you mentioned does not happen in 7 yrs, you might be just awake or learned about these things recently

all the above takes decades to master, dont say setting up IIT's/IIM's by nehru nonsense

BTW, China was given all technology in 70's, later they stole technology from US

Pak has been given those to make India buy more expensive weapons from US, which India avoided, first learn how US creates and funds their friends and foes

 

[futureofandhra]

58 minutes ago, pakeer_saab said:

all those you mentioned does not happen in 7 yrs, you might be just awake or learned about these things recently

all the above takes decades to master, dont say setting up IIT's/IIM's by nehru nonsense

BTW, China was given all technology in 70's, later they stole technology from US

Pak has been given those to make India buy more expensive weapons from US, which India avoided, first learn how US creates and funds their friends and foes

 

No point in blaming others for India's failures

Even today no safety or quality in Indian infrastructure

This applies to all public who takes money n voting

 

[kakatiya]

1 hour ago, pakeer_saab said:

While i appreciate your views on the defense aspect, I smell a PhulCon (Phulka+ Congress) in your subconscious thoughts

you should not forget the fact that India was weakened pretty bad during 10 yrs of UPA, comparing Modi's lack of preparedness to its own performance is a mistake only PhulCons can do at this time

a strategic deal to ensure 42 squadrons for Air force was there since 2004 atleast, why was it ignored for 10 yrs... possible for lack of commissions. Yes nothing gets done without commisions udirng congress

China encroaching Indian territory has been happening many times since 1962, its just that Modi is under more scrutiny now than any govts in the past

India is not in any position to fight autocratic China, add covid mess to the long list of problems, the only choice we had was to stop further encroaching, India has been building border infrastructure for the first time since the great congress gone into demise

next time when you compare in political terms, please ensure the state of Indian defense at the time of the problem and the root cause for that problem

now coming to foreign policy, there has been no doubt that Indian foreign policy has been the best during BJP than non BJP govts, even the vilest critics of Modi accept that

India is using its strategic diplomatic skills for its own interests for the first time in history, outcome of this will surely be great to see

Preparing for war is more important than winning a war, this is what Modi has been doing since 2014

I am ..your vocal disagreement   followed by insult of using words like phulka chapathi or scamgress shows your own personal blind inclination of modi influenced by hollow and dangerous fake nationalism. 

politically , extremism backened hatism , where his followers repeatedly take-up   adjectives like anti national , commie ,sickilar whenever an argument is lost or frustrated at loss of examples to put supreme leader at top of pedestal. That's a common expected reaction of following a leader blindly overlooking his historic  mistakes. Be it followers or leaders instead of admitting their own epic  faults they keep downplaying bringing up historic faults !!!

And coming to foreign policies it has been a big flop. Be it Nepal kalapani issue and Bangladesh opening to china arms and building Padma bridge increasing it ties. And ties with Iran loosened as china opened 400 billion$ deal inclining in favour of china over India on world stage. ..

And sir , current state of defence deal is where modi is busy snatching Rafael deal from HAL in favour of his gujju inexperienced industrialists.. and it is open secrete now where they removed alok Verma cbi overnight to bury the Rafael scam of multiple billion dollars  , which puts middleman's $$$ over national security ..it is a national shame and credits to modi Shaw and godi media to suppress it..probably they didn't learn from bangaru Laxman tehlka defence deal scam... no wonder press freedom fell steepest, we need tehalka back..

The biggest nail In Coffin is when supreme leader showed up on TV with imported cheetahs on same day India lost grazing grounds to china in name of buffer zones.. the news of cheetahs was repeatedly telecasted overshadowing any new article or clip of India loosing territory to china .

 

even Nepal had audacity to update it's map in 70 years to show Indian territory as its own ! 

 

his over confidence by ignoring doklam and inviting xi trying to build a stage of relation completely failed which evidently showed in knee jerk  emergency weapon purchase , modi + Shaw ignoring critical issues  by completely involving local politics. 

for 45 years china didn't even fire a single bullet nor killed our soldiers. ..the last time we had victims where 4 soldiers in 1975.. we had skirmishes ..in 1987 and 2007 but not loss of our territory to Chinese.. and you lying that china has been continuously encroaching land is a big lie in attempt to put your modi sir image in control just what godi media and fake WhatsApp forwards do !! 

that's enough evidence which puts Modis precedence of his own  image above the countries pride. The same border defence where modi repeatedly insults Nehru for loss of territory .

 

 

[pakeer_saab]

2 minutes ago, kakatiya said:

I am ..your vocal disagreement   followed by insult of using words like phulka chapathi or scamgress shows your own personal blind inclination of modi influenced by hollow and dangerous fake nationalism. 

politically , extremism backened hatism , where his followers repeatedly take-up   adjectives like anti national , commie ,sickilar whenever an argument is lost or frustrated at loss of examples to put supreme leader at top of pedestal. That's a common expected reaction of following a leader blindly overlooking his historic  mistakes. Be it followers or leaders instead of admitting their own epic  faults they keep downplaying bringing up historic faults !!!

And coming to foreign policies it has been a big flop. Be it Nepal kalapani issue and Bangladesh opening to china arms and building Padma bridge increasing it ties. And ties with Iran loosened as china opened 400 billion$ deal inclining in favour of china over India on world stage. ..

And sir , current state of defence deal is where modi is busy snatching Rafael deal from HAL in favour of his gujju inexperienced industrialists.. and it is open secrete now where they removed alok Verma cbi overnight to bury the Rafael scam of multiple billion dollars  , which puts middleman's $$$ over national security ..it is a national shame and credits to modi Shaw and godi media to suppress it.. no wonder press freedom fell steepest.

The biggest nail In Coffin is when supreme leader showed up on TV with imported cheetahs on same day India lost grazing grounds to china in name of buffer zones.. the news of cheetahs was repeatedly telecasted overshadowing any new article or clip of India loosing territory to china .

 

even Nepal had audacity to update it's map in 70 years to show Indian territory as its own ! 

 

his over confidence by ignoring doklam and inviting xi trying to build a stage of relation completely failed which evidently showed in knee jerk  emergency weapon purchase , modi + Shaw ignoring critical issues  by completely involving local politics. 

for 45 years china didn't even fire a single bullet nor killed our soldiers. ..the last time we had victims where 4 soldiers in 1975.. we had skirmishes ..in 1987 and 2007 but not loss of our territory to Chinese.. and you lying that china has been continuously encroaching land is a big lie in attempt to put your modi sir image in control just what godi media and fake WhatsApp forwards do !! 

that's enough evidence which puts Modis precedence of his own  image above the countries pride. The same border defence where modi repeatedly insults Nehru for loss of territory .

 

 

You are talking about historic blunders and did not refer to actual history at all, you should start with 1958 handover of UN Veto to China and 1962 loss to china

you seem to be one of those who never cared to look into history, China has been encroaching since 1962 in various forms called as salami slicing tactics, they themselves have it as their strategy while you deny it

first know what the reason for 1962 loss, unless you know it you will never be able to criticize current govt with any rational basis

in the most recent skirmish, India killed more soldiers than they killed ours, you may be one who wants proof form China in this case, China lives by propaganda both in India and outside India, you seem to rely more on propaganda than reality and i cannot deny your right for that

HAL is a govt enterprise and it has not been able to increase capacity, other players are indeed needed, this is not Nehru govt to keep propping govt enterprises and encourage low productivity

what Dassault chose as its partner has no basis for govt to dictate

You seem be following more wire, scroll kind of media to create an opinion about BJP, keep following and good luck with that effort

 

 

 

 

[kakatiya]

44 minutes ago, pakeer_saab said:

You are talking about historic blunders and did not refer to actual history at all, you should start with 1958 handover of UN Veto to China and 1962 loss to china

you seem to be one of those who never cared to look into history, China has been encroaching since 1962 in various forms called as salami slicing tactics, they themselves have it as their strategy while you deny it

first know what the reason for 1962 loss, unless you know it you will never be able to criticize current govt with any rational basis

in the most recent skirmish, India killed more soldiers than they killed ours, you may be one who wants proof form China in this case, China lives by propaganda both in India and outside India, you seem to rely more on propaganda than reality and i cannot deny your right for that

HAL is a govt enterprise and it has not been able to increase capacity, other players are indeed needed, this is not Nehru govt to keep propping govt enterprises and encourage low productivity

what Dassault chose as its partner has no basis for govt to dictate

You seem be following more wire, scroll kind of media to create an opinion about BJP, keep following and good luck with that effort

 

 

 

 

Salami slicing is done repeatedly by WhatsApp univeristy grads by repeatedly criticizing historic blunders in 1962 , concealing biggest loss of land to china in 2022. This thread is a live example where despite me bringing up the facts of events between china and Ladakh where skirmishes where involved in last 45 years..there is no record of our land declared as buffer zones by both parties ..this is the biggest loss and should be treated with shame on Modis administration 

Since you believe everything modi does is right, everyone who criticizes his moves is completely wrong !! 

Hal is govt enterprise that has not been able to increase capacity so bring in completely new defence private entities that has been recently setup ?  

This is the fake in Modis policies since day 1. This nationalist gives audacious titles to the policies but implements them with absolute historic blinders. Be it demonization , statues, agnipath , citizenship bill .etc 

Now let's come to Rafael deal .. 

This deal is flawed from the beginning .. why ? Because this was dealt directly by PMO office rather than defence minister parikar.  

Yes JV with private entities will escalate the total build process..perfect solution..

..but give 10% of major offset manufacturing to a private firm that was setup 20 days before deal which csiril rated reliance infra of 4500 croes in debt anilambani company  as grade  D ? 

Rafael was begging to sell aircrafts to India ..it has no major deals and was looking for currency to flow..instead of capitalizing on this deal..India was ready to pay 3 billon $ more ??? First off all who recommended anilambani   company to Rafael ?? How come then DM parikar has no answers and why PMO was directly involved ?? 

 

And this is when mediapart French journal published the 7.3 million euros transfered to middleman Gupta and was ready to share evidences with Indian cbi ?!!

 

 

 

[pakeer_saab]

1 hour ago, kakatiya said:

Salami slicing is done repeatedly by WhatsApp univeristy grads by repeatedly criticizing historic blunders in 1962 , concealing biggest loss of land to china in 2022. This thread is a live example where despite me bringing up the facts of events between china and Ladakh where skirmishes where involved in last 45 years..there is no record of our land declared as buffer zones by both parties ..this is the biggest loss and should be treated with shame on Modis administration 

Since you believe everything modi does is right, everyone who criticizes his moves is completely wrong !! 

Hal is govt enterprise that has not been able to increase capacity so bring in completely new defence private entities that has been recently setup ?  

This is the fake in Modis policies since day 1. This nationalist gives audacious titles to the policies but implements them with absolute historic blinders. Be it demonization , statues, agnipath , citizenship bill .etc 

Now let's come to Rafael deal .. 

This deal is flawed from the beginning .. why ? Because this was dealt directly by PMO office rather than defence minister parikar.  

Yes JV with private entities will escalate the total build process..perfect solution..

..but give 10% of major offset manufacturing to a private firm that was setup 20 days before deal which csiril rated reliance infra of 4500 croes in debt anilambani company  as grade  D ? 

Rafael was begging to sell aircrafts to India ..it has no major deals and was looking for currency to flow..instead of capitalizing on this deal..India was ready to pay 3 billon $ more ??? First off all who recommended anilambani   company to Rafael ?? How come then DM parikar has no answers and why PMO was directly involved ?? 

 

And this is when mediapart French journal published the 7.3 million euros transfered to middleman Gupta and was ready to share evidences with Indian cbi ?!!

 

 

 

Why didn't SC look into this?? oops SC is also sold out antaavu

the only one left with all this evidence is the scam ridden congress and its supporters

first of you still seem to miss the scam part, is Dassault picking Ambani is the scam or there is something more hidden that is not visible to any one

first of all, the total scam was "pichatis" hazaar karod as told by Rahul, can you tell all of us what is real number

just like we have congress and its ecosystem working day in and out since 2014 to prove BJP did any scam, even France has their own set of leftist lie peddlers, nothing is proven in any court of law other than Gandhi Court of Pidis where TDP idiots join to peep into for slides

if there is any element of scam in all this, it is just picking reliance instead of TATA. that too no one knows if TATA even tried to become a partner

just to let you know some history, Jeep Scam was the first scam under congress in 1958 and they have not stopped until 2013 with number of scams increasing in size, you are trying hard to prove corruption started in 2014, which itself means you are either a generational pidi who got their funds dried up and have congenital hatred or half-baked idiot ignoramus with neither experience nor age to go back in time and read about history

now coming to WhatsApp, most of the BJP supporters are infact more educated than congress jokers, just by saying whatsapp one cannot move away from facts which are totally against congress, which is evident in the way things are going on with them and its supporters

 

 

[Swatkat]

2 hours ago, pakeer_saab said:

You are talking about historic blunders and did not refer to actual history at all, you should start with 1958 handover of UN Veto to China and 1962 loss to china

you seem to be one of those who never cared to look into history, China has been encroaching since 1962 in various forms called as salami slicing tactics, they themselves have it as their strategy while you deny it

first know what the reason for 1962 loss, unless you know it you will never be able to criticize current govt with any rational basis

in the most recent skirmish, India killed more soldiers than they killed ours, you may be one who wants proof form China in this case, China lives by propaganda both in India and outside India, you seem to rely more on propaganda than reality and i cannot deny your right for that

HAL is a govt enterprise and it has not been able to increase capacity, other players are indeed needed, this is not Nehru govt to keep propping govt enterprises and encourage low productivity

what Dassault chose as its partner has no basis for govt to dictate

You seem be following more wire, scroll kind of media to create an opinion about BJP, keep following and good luck with that effort

 

 

 

 

Hi

[Cool]

3 hours ago, futureofandhra said:

Dude

Is there any proof of f16 was shot

Nothing

Using aged jets n confronting pakis n china is disaster

Many pilots resigned

Facts matter not iq on this issue

Bhayya, Indian army did a press conference releasing f16’s heat signature captured by mig. inka anthaku kimchi proof em untadi.

[Cool]

India started exporting defense defense equipment that itself is enough to say India is in the right path of make in India. 

[telugu_fan]

1 hour ago, kakatiya said:

Salami slicing is done repeatedly by WhatsApp univeristy grads by repeatedly criticizing historic blunders in 1962 , concealing biggest loss of land to china in 2022. This thread is a live example where despite me bringing up the facts of events between china and Ladakh where skirmishes where involved in last 45 years..there is no record of our land declared as buffer zones by both parties ..this is the biggest loss and should be treated with shame on Modis administration 

Since you believe everything modi does is right, everyone who criticizes his moves is completely wrong !! 

Hal is govt enterprise that has not been able to increase capacity so bring in completely new defence private entities that has been recently setup ?  

This is the fake in Modis policies since day 1. This nationalist gives audacious titles to the policies but implements them with absolute historic blinders. Be it demonization , statues, agnipath , citizenship bill .etc 

Now let's come to Rafael deal .. 

This deal is flawed from the beginning .. why ? Because this was dealt directly by PMO office rather than defence minister parikar.  

Yes JV with private entities will escalate the total build process..perfect solution..

..but give 10% of major offset manufacturing to a private firm that was setup 20 days before deal which csiril rated reliance infra of 4500 croes in debt anilambani company  as grade  D ? 

Rafael was begging to sell aircrafts to India ..it has no major deals and was looking for currency to flow..instead of capitalizing on this deal..India was ready to pay 3 billon $ more ??? First off all who recommended anilambani   company to Rafael ?? How come then DM parikar has no answers and why PMO was directly involved ?? 

 

And this is when mediapart French journal published the 7.3 million euros transfered to middleman Gupta and was ready to share evidences with Indian cbi ?!!

 

 

 

Kakatia Saaru,

it looks like you are mixing quite a few points to make your case. so i will try to add some clarity to the thought. There are many interwoven issues for the rafale purchase.

Part 1

Rafale purchase:

If you really want the history of this purchase you will have to go back to 1980's when Pakis were gifted F-16 by the US for their help in the afghan war with the soviets. Indians were denied the usual from the west. infact when we originally wanted to buy tornado the British refused and gave us Jaguar aircraft which was underpowerd for its time and had a pretty weak radar. We upgraded the engines later and modified it for bombing run and not aerial/dogfighting.

It was then that India bought french Mirage aircraft and they bought about 40 or 49 to equip 2.5 squadrons. India originally wanted about 120 odd planes. But it costed pretty penny about 40million dollars each then in 1985 time frame and India didn't have enough forex and so India went to russia who offered Mig -23 and they bought 2 squadrons and they were pretty bad, they had great front line speed but very bad turn radius which made them unfit for dog fighting with F-16. So India bought another 2 squadrons of Mig 27 which was optimized for ground attack role with it cannons.

Mig-29 wasn't on offer for India, but the breakup of Soviet union gave India an oppurtunity to buy this aircraft and India also bought another two squadrons. Soviets refused to give India any manufacturing rights for this aircraft like the Mig-21 was done years earlier. Mig-29 was an agile fighter and would have been effective in dog fights but had a very short range.

Post 90's India went for liberalization and economy was improved and India didn't make any big purchases of military hardware as it set it economy on track, India had issues securing spares for the Mig and other russian military hardware due to the breakup of soviet union. that was also the time Mig21 earned the nickname flying coffin. India got its hand on su-27 which was modifed for India and India paid for it which ultimately led to the birth of Su-30MKI (that is a story for another day 🙂 )

IAF wanted to retire the older gen aircraft and requested the then Vajpayee govt to exercise the clause of buying the remaining aircrafts for the mirage. George fernandes was the then defense minister agreed for the follow up buy of the aircraft's, but some bureaucrat in the MOD pointed out that the current mirage in 2003 is different from the mirage of 1985/86 (it had a better engine, upgraded avionics, radar and missiles effectively making it a new plane and so they had to call a tender). Since those were the days of tehelka scams and coffin gates george fernandes gave in and a tender was floated called medium combat aircraft (MRCA).

The original idea for the airforce was a deal will be signed by 2004 and planes will be delivered starting from 2007 on wards and airforce can retire its older airframes. The initial cost for these 120 odd airframes was calculated as about 5-8 billion with maybe another 2 billion for techs.

The govt changed in 2004 and then UPA1 came in and changed the tender to medium role combate aircraft and then it has the russians Mig35, American F16 also joining in (how is a medium aircraft nobdy knows), with eurofighter, Saab Gripen, F-18 and that causing Dassault to upgrade their offering to Rafale.

The new tender specified that along with local manufacture the associated technology will be transferred. It stipulated that the aircraft must have AESA radar and must be able to future proof to cater to any new threats. Mind you at the time of testing other than American planes no other planes had a working Aesa radar. but all the OEM's assured that they have one which is working in the lab and will be in the aeroplane.

The aircrafts were flown in different parts of India and were gauged on a range of parameters not just on one or two and finally the IA made a technical down select between rafale and Eurofighter by 2010 time frame. ( years for various tests and to come to a conclusion).

The UPA-2's MOD and defense minister took another two years to downselect rafale as the cheaper between the two but didn't sign the deal in 2013 (infact in parliament he gave a statement that india doesn't have money to buy the required number of aircrafts).

[pakeer_saab]

2 hours ago, kakatiya said:

Salami slicing is done repeatedly by WhatsApp univeristy grads by repeatedly criticizing historic blunders in 1962 , concealing biggest loss of land to china in 2022. This thread is a live example where despite me bringing up the facts of events between china and Ladakh where skirmishes where involved in last 45 years..there is no record of our land declared as buffer zones by both parties ..this is the biggest loss and should be treated with shame on Modis administration 

Since you believe everything modi does is right, everyone who criticizes his moves is completely wrong !! 

Hal is govt enterprise that has not been able to increase capacity so bring in completely new defence private entities that has been recently setup ?  

This is the fake in Modis policies since day 1. This nationalist gives audacious titles to the policies but implements them with absolute historic blinders. Be it demonization , statues, agnipath , citizenship bill .etc 

Now let's come to Rafael deal .. 

This deal is flawed from the beginning .. why ? Because this was dealt directly by PMO office rather than defence minister parikar.  

Yes JV with private entities will escalate the total build process..perfect solution..

..but give 10% of major offset manufacturing to a private firm that was setup 20 days before deal which csiril rated reliance infra of 4500 croes in debt anilambani company  as grade  D ? 

Rafael was begging to sell aircrafts to India ..it has no major deals and was looking for currency to flow..instead of capitalizing on this deal..India was ready to pay 3 billon $ more ??? First off all who recommended anilambani   company to Rafael ?? How come then DM parikar has no answers and why PMO was directly involved ?? 

 

And this is when mediapart French journal published the 7.3 million euros transfered to middleman Gupta and was ready to share evidences with Indian cbi ?!!

 

 

 

1987 incident
1967 Nathu La

read about those first, adanta maaku telvad, i was not born then anaku

second, declaring as buffer zone is not amounting to acceptance of that part being Chinese territory, it is just a way to postpone the issue for broader talks

[telugu_fan]

part 2:

rafale purchase:

Remember that this is 2014 and IAF wanted to actually start inducting planes from 2007/2008 and still now no new planes. Modi Govt came in and had Arun jaitley as finance and defense minister and after 6-8months decided to have manohar parriker as the DM. After going through the file and list he came to the conclusion that this deal cannot be done in the required time frame.

dassault said they cannot transfer technology for the radar and engines as those are separate dept and they come under French govt and permission have to be taken from them. The cost was no where near the 5-8 billion proposed and kept increasing. IAF was talking about depleted squadron strength all the time and no plan B. 

When Manohar Parrikar asked the IAF what is the minimum airframes they need, they replied atleast 2-3 squadrons. So instead of getting a middle man for buying the planes the Indian govt went for Govt to govt deal (Modi govt has gone for govt to govt deal for all major defense purchases, as there will not be allegations of corruption citing middle men). It was the PMO that led the delegation for negotiations which i will come to later.

They went for the latest rafale which was rafale F3. When rafale was shortlisted in 2010 it was Rafale F1 with F2 finishing tests in french airforce. So based on IAF inputs a deal was negotiated with modifications to F3 that made it one of the most advance rafale aircraft in the world (even the french didn't have those modifications in their F3's they will better those with the newer F4 that is going to come online in the next couple of years.

We will deal with the cost of the planes and the so called scam in the next part.