MSP, Middleman & Myths: What Has Changed With the New Farm Laws and Who Benefits

[narsy]

9 minutes ago, RSUCHOU said:

This is a little skewed argument. Government procures only about 13 of the several crops that are currently grown. Primarily they procure rice and wheat. Also, 40% of the rice and wheat grown in India is left to rot. Indian rice and wheat farmers have not innovated in the last several decades rendering the rice that is procured not exportable. The net estimated loss in that area is 1.8 Lakh crore per year. Several vegetables like Capsicum, Potato etc which are not regulated stay at a constant price almost across the country. Similarly prices of the pulses like Jowar etc which are not regulated are standard. But, the price of the regulated items fluctuates and hits the roof very often. So, regulation might not after all be a solution at all. Also, because of the MSPs and government procurement, farmers are also not seeing beyond the select few crops which is also affecting the soil and yield quality. So, I don't see the points the author makes to be correct.

yes. Agriculture is the biggest social security scheme for India. ..

what about bihar farmers who have had the great pleasure to be ripped off the band aid of MSP 15yrs ago... has the 'market' improved their incomes, or managed to come up with techniques to improve their yields?

surprise surprise.. Punjab produces close to twice the output per hectare as bihar does. 

where do you think market has gone wrong, that a MSP depending state is being more productive than competititve bihar?

[narsy]

2 minutes ago, RSUCHOU said:

To all people that consider corporates bad, please also note that the purchasing power of Indians is directly because of corporates. Quality of life is up a notch because India opened it's markets post 1991. Corporates are the key contributors to Indian economy. Not all of them are evil. Not every law that is passed is to benefit corporates. I come from a HUF that owns land in excess of a hundred acres and am very well aware of the ground realities in terms of farm laws. There was a time not in the distant past where my village used to export oranges and groundnut to Maharastra and other places. The farm laws and market yards slowly killed the setup and add to it the draught, there is no cultivation in the majority of the district. If corporates lease out our lands, that would actually trigger a cycle of good things.

lease out to who? and at what salary? will it improve farm incomes?

why haven't we any of this rosy scenario play out in states like bihar that have done this more than a decade ago.

its not that corporates are bad. Its tht the law was devised without consulting farmers. you probably are in support of the law. you can have a counter protest in support of the bill, if you like.

around 85% of farmers in punjab are labourers, and they are joining this fight too. why do you think? I don't know. don't they trust their future corporate masters to pay better than their current feudal ones?

[AvakaiBiriyani]

 

[RSUCHOU]

1 hour ago, narsy said:

yes. Agriculture is the biggest social security scheme for India. ..

what about bihar farmers who have had the great pleasure to be ripped off the band aid of MSP 15yrs ago... has the 'market' improved their incomes, or managed to come up with techniques to improve their yields?

surprise surprise.. Punjab produces close to twice the output per hectare as bihar does. 

where do you think market has gone wrong, that a MSP depending state is being more productive than competititve bihar?

No state in the country has MSPs on all the produce. Here is a list for your reference. No MSP list corrections have been done as a part of these farm bills. Below is a list of MSPs across the states in case you are interested. 

https://www.indiastat.com/agriculture-data/2/agricultural-prices/6527/minimum-support-prices/17827/stats.aspx

The 3 farm bills that were tabled and passed have not changed a single thing regarding the MSPs. This discussion is being hijacked by some left leaning intellectuals to shoot the current government over the shoulder of farm bills. I suggest that you watch the print's videos(Sekhar Gupta, Ashok Gulati and Montek Singh Ahluwalia) I guess it is cut the clutter 571 if I am not wrong. Please see Ashok Gulati's interviews. He is India's foremost Agricultural economist. Thankfully these are not Modi media. 

Closer home, you should watch/read what JP has to say about these. I guess within these you should understand the farm bills differently. 

[narsy]

1 minute ago, RSUCHOU said:

No state in the country has MSPs on all the produce. Here is a list for your reference. No MSP list corrections have been done as a part of these farm bills. Below is a list of MSPs across the states in case you are interested. 

https://www.indiastat.com/agriculture-data/2/agricultural-prices/6527/minimum-support-prices/17827/stats.aspx

The 3 farm bills that were tabled and passed have not changed a single thing regarding the MSPs. This discussion is being hijacked by some left leaning intellectuals to shoot the current government over the shoulder of farm bills. I suggest that you watch the print's videos(Sekhar Gupta, Ashok Gulati and Montek Singh Ahluwalia) I guess it is cut the clutter 571 if I am not wrong. Please see Ashok Gulati's interviews. He is India's foremost Agricultural economist. Thankfully these are not Modi media. 

Closer home, you should watch/read what JP has to say about these. I guess within these you should understand the farm bills differently. 

I asked you a simple quechen. you claimed that the bill would boost productivity because it allows market forces to work their magic or something like that.

my quechen was.. did it work its magic in bihar or not. did bihar improve yields or farm incomes in the past 15yrs when msp was lifted.

[RSUCHOU]

1 hour ago, hyperbole said:

Currently even with out any new laws farmer can sell their product at any place they want. That’s how farmers from Bihar are able to sell in Punjab. The problem with law is that it weakens the APMC mandi system which is a fall back option for these farmers. 

80% of the farmers marginal who own less than 2 acres of land and it is impractical to transport to adajacent town let alone adjacent state.

Mandi System is a fallback? They are the bottle neck in most of the cases. Did you know that APMC was lifted off during the Corona time? Farmers made 10% more money with 8% less cost in Punjab? APMCs are power centers and political centers in Punjab. They have an iron hold on the farmers. Farmers dont benefit from them. They are mostly at a loss. The transport is arranged by the so called private players right? Also, the regulations under Food safety bill made it very difficult for the produce to be transported freely. So, when the borders are opened, the cartelization is actually reduced. 

[RSUCHOU]

5 minutes ago, narsy said:

I asked you a simple quechen. you claimed that the bill would boost productivity because it allows market forces to work their magic or something like that.

my quechen was.. did it work its magic in bihar or not. did bihar improve yields or farm incomes in the past 15yrs when msp was lifted.

Did you read the farm bills? Was there any mention of lifting off the MSPs? From where did MSP come into picture here? Secondly, where did I say farm bills boost productivity? And, what magic did I speak of? 

Let me ask you back. Food Safety bill and MSP has been in vogue for several decades now. Did it stop farmer suicides? Did it stop the migration of farmers to town seeking employment as watchmen, help etc? Do you know what the produce laws are in Bihar and how are the new farm laws different from them?

[RSUCHOU]

1 hour ago, narsy said:

lease out to who? and at what salary? will it improve farm incomes?

why haven't we any of this rosy scenario play out in states like bihar that have done this more than a decade ago.

its not that corporates are bad. Its tht the law was devised without consulting farmers. you probably are in support of the law. you can have a counter protest in support of the bill, if you like.

around 85% of farmers in punjab are labourers, and they are joining this fight too. why do you think? I don't know. don't they trust their future corporate masters to pay better than their current feudal ones?

Punjab has the most largest of the landholdings in the entire country. They are screwing up the ecology and environment by cultivating Rice and Wheat. Stubble burning to reduction in water table is what they contribute to our economy. Did you know the quality of the produce in Punjab is not even export grade? While India is the largest producer of wheat in the world, we export only 1.8% of Wheat. We produce more Wheat in India that we consume.  The net loss of what FDC procures in India is 40% and the amount of loss we incur on the loss is close 1.8 Lakh crores. 

If everyone that needs their point heard has to resort to riots, our country would be an anarchy not democracy. I feel as a citizen of this country it is my duty to understand, question and contribute to the betterment of the country in whichever way I see it fit. Resorting to riots is not one of those. Most of the people in a riot are instigated. The best I can do is to see if I can pass on my understanding to a few people around me hoping that the correct information is then passed across. In the due course, if someone can counter me with data, I am willing to enhance my understanding and change my stance.

[narsy]

25 minutes ago, RSUCHOU said:

Was there any mention of lifting off the MSPs? From where did MSP come into picture here?

dude, MSP comes into the picture because they have included procurement of essential commodities which were protected by the MSP earlier. Its gonna obviously come into the picture, because there's no protection against monopsony in the farm bills. 

26 minutes ago, RSUCHOU said:

Secondly, where did I say farm bills boost productivity?

you said earlier that competition boosts productivity. I ask where has that productivity materialized? Has bihar been more productive than Punjab? no.

26 minutes ago, RSUCHOU said:

ood Safety bill and MSP has been in vogue for several decades now. Did it stop farmer suicides? Did it stop the migration of farmers to town seeking employment as watchmen, help etc?

Is the farm procurement bill trying to address all these issues?

I mean, what exactly is the problem with our agri procurement system? the govts answer to this question is - lack of unified competitive market. that's what the bill tries to address. It has nothing to do with addressing farmer concerns. and that's why they are on the streets.

29 minutes ago, RSUCHOU said:

Do you know what the produce laws are in Bihar and how are the new farm laws different from them?

bihar removed apmc, and created an open market for the farmers to sell their goods. this farm bill attempts to do it in a larger scale. do you have any other special insight into how bihar laws were different? because the consensus is, it has devastated the farmers  in bihar. the Punjab farmers are protesting because they are large land holders and were able to organize more effectively. 

[narsy]

27 minutes ago, RSUCHOU said:

They are screwing up the ecology and environment by cultivating Rice and Wheat. Stubble burning to reduction in water table is what they contribute to our economy.

entirely different issues. have nothing to do with the bill. 

28 minutes ago, RSUCHOU said:

Did you know the quality of the produce in Punjab is not even export grade? While India is the largest producer of wheat in the world, we export only 1.8% of Wheat. We produce more Wheat in India that we consume.

accoridng to indexmundi, India is currently exporting about 500MT of wheat, and it was exporting 6500MT in the early 2010s. the production is in the range of 90million MT. Not exporting much seems to be part of govt strategy and international market prices for wheat, more than anything. If 'grade' of wheat is a problem. that the bill will solve, pls point to me which of India's unregulated cereals have zoomed in exports because the govt doesn't control them.

the bill simply lower the price of wheat in the market. Not just for Punjab, but for every farmer.

46 minutes ago, RSUCHOU said:

The net loss of what FDC procures in India is 40% and the amount of loss we incur on the loss is close 1.8 Lakh crores. 

yes. and who should bear the burden of reversing this loss? that is the question. should farmers bear all the burden? because the bill has almost nothing in it for the farmers who will be the most affected

48 minutes ago, RSUCHOU said:

If everyone that needs their point heard has to resort to riots, our country would be an anarchy not democracy. I feel as a citizen of this country it is my duty to understand, question and contribute to the betterment of the country in whichever way I see it fit. Resorting to riots is not one of those.

none of your business. the country is just a set of agreed rules, that everyone abides by. If you change the rules on a whim, people will protest anyway they see fit. nobody rioted. stop throwing around words that have specific meaning.

 

50 minutes ago, RSUCHOU said:

The best I can do is to see if I can pass on my understanding to a few people around me hoping that the correct information is then passed across. In the due course, if someone can counter me with data, I am willing to enhance my understanding and change my stance.

I can't think of anything new tht you have added to this argument.

[galiraju]

I think this whole thing will end up like in the USA, where everything a farmer does/do is dictated by the corporate.  I saw a documentary on that long time ago.

[galiraju]

I don't think PMO/BJP wrote the bill, nowadays/often it is mostly cooperate who writes the bills lol

[RSUCHOU]

2 hours ago, narsy said:

entirely different issues. have nothing to do with the bill. 

accoridng to indexmundi, India is currently exporting about 500MT of wheat, and it was exporting 6500MT in the early 2010s. the production is in the range of 90million MT. Not exporting much seems to be part of govt strategy and international market prices for wheat, more than anything. If 'grade' of wheat is a problem. that the bill will solve, pls point to me which of India's unregulated cereals have zoomed in exports because the govt doesn't control them.

the bill simply lower the price of wheat in the market. Not just for Punjab, but for every farmer.

yes. and who should bear the burden of reversing this loss? that is the question. should farmers bear all the burden? because the bill has almost nothing in it for the farmers who will be the most affected

none of your business. the country is just a set of agreed rules, that everyone abides by. If you change the rules on a whim, people will protest anyway they see fit. nobody rioted. stop throwing around words that have specific meaning.

 

I can't think of anything new tht you have added to this argument.

https://theprint.in/opinion/what-economists-like-ashok-gulati-still-dont-understand-about-agriculture-in-india/513848/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHYC5o2xZwQ&ab_channel=ThePrint

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2yGbGZGeck&ab_channel=IndiaToday

I could not explain better than the above. Please go through if you have some time.

[RSUCHOU]

2 hours ago, narsy said:

dude, MSP comes into the picture because they have included procurement of essential commodities which were protected by the MSP earlier. Its gonna obviously come into the picture, because there's no protection against monopsony in the farm bills. 

you said earlier that competition boosts productivity. I ask where has that productivity materialized? Has bihar been more productive than Punjab? no.

Is the farm procurement bill trying to address all these issues?

I mean, what exactly is the problem with our agri procurement system? the govts answer to this question is - lack of unified competitive market. that's what the bill tries to address. It has nothing to do with addressing farmer concerns. and that's why they are on the streets.

bihar removed apmc, and created an open market for the farmers to sell their goods. this farm bill attempts to do it in a larger scale. do you have any other special insight into how bihar laws were different? because the consensus is, it has devastated the farmers  in bihar. the Punjab farmers are protesting because they are large land holders and were able to organize more effectively. 

A few more closer home, sir.

 

[narsy]

1 hour ago, RSUCHOU said:

A few more closer home, sir.

 

Other than reading a sensationalist twitter headline many weeks ago on the farm bills introduction, on twitter, I have not read a single article on this issue. Everything I know is from my cousin who I speak to regularly over the years, and who runs mandis in couple of places in rayalseema.

I have no interest to watch videos on this issue. you can point out to me where exactly I'm wrong, if you have the time.