Minorities must have first claim on resources - greatest statement by a sitting Indian PM in my living memory.

[Raven_Rayes]

1 minute ago, Kreole_ said:

Hmm..do you think this applies for Hindus and other minorities in Pak and Bangla? 

obviously. but should people in India fight for minorities in other countries, while taking away minority rights in their own country?

then what is the difference btwn pakistan, that talks about Indian muslims and India

[Kreole_]

Ok if you really think abt lacking political power there are a lot more marginalised sections in our society than Muslims.

[Raven_Rayes]

1 minute ago, Kreole_ said:

Ok if you really think abt lacking political power there are a lot more marginalised sections in our society than Muslims.

muslims are the largest such group. its your innate phobia of muslims - normal for every Indian born in the hindu fold (even I was like that), that makes you cringe at the prospect of considering muslims as the group that need a huge helping hand from the govt in India. muslims are still considered as invaders by a lot of us, which is silly given this is 2022, not 1600.

muslims are the group that are not just disadvantaged, but are even attacked now with full state support, widespread across several states.

there are groups (dalits and adivasis) that deserve a say too, and they have representation in parliament already.. about 50mps. may be that's not the way to have representation. India can try different better ways if it wants.. but its no question that muslims, along with other dalits and adivasis do need state's helping hand.

[Raven_Rayes]

15 minutes ago, Kreole_ said:

Ok if you really think abt lacking political power there are a lot more marginalised sections in our society than Muslims.

migatha ye group ni kooda muslims ni target chesey antha direct ga public ga leaders target cheyyatla.

 

 

 

[Kreole_]

May be slightly off topic, Is n't it true that a huge majority of the South Asian Muslims were converted to Islam at Knifepoint? 

[Raven_Rayes]

1 minute ago, Kreole_ said:

May be slightly off topic, Is n't it true that a huge majority of the South Asian Muslims were converted to Islam at Knifepoint? 

no, its not true. most conversions happened to escape Hinduism within last 150yrs.

a lot people of higher caste used to convert to muslim so they can be better positioned to gain advantage with the muslim king. whether they convert back to Hinduism or not depends on how successful their transition to Islam was.

also the term 'hindu' is a political group, not a religion. go back a few generations, I doubt our own ancestors identified themselves as Hindus, beyond just their castes.

Just like bhakti movement converted a majority of unaffiliated people in India to accept Hindu gods and incorporate them into their rituals, sufi was one movement that converted a lot of unaffiliated people into muslims.

In India the majority were unaffiliated if you go back a couple 100 years.. Not Hindus.

[Raven_Rayes]

13 minutes ago, Kreole_ said:

May be slightly off topic, Is n't it true that a huge majority of the South Asian Muslims were converted to Islam at Knifepoint? 

if anything, it was hindu varna system that was imposed on a lot of powerless groups, a sort of our own slave system.

[Kreole_]

8 minutes ago, Raven_Rayes said:

unaffiliated people?? 

Atheists or are those who prayed to their village gods? 

[Raven_Rayes]

20 minutes ago, Kreole_ said:

Atheists or are those who prayed to their village gods? 

each caste had their own priest class, and their own rituals.

atheism is simply an expression of rejection of vedic religion, which was the beginning of structural religion in India. Every single person who followed that religion was a brahmin. Rest were non-brahmins. thats all.

then it branches off into Jainism, Buddhism and starts to compete with vedic religion, relegating those brahmins that stuck to vedic religion into a powerless position, because Jainism and buddhism spread at incredible speed across India given their simplicity towards religion (plus king's patronage) and how easy everyone could adopt them. btw, buddhism was also embraced by brahmins, and it was only anti ritualistic, not anti brahmin in nature.

the reaction to this was revival of vedic religion with adi shankara and other vaishnavite saints.. and even then mostly the religion was mostly practised among the brahmins, and the rest didn't care much. only invited brahmins for certain services and paid them for it.

some of these other caste priests later became brahmins, or they branched off into smaller castes with lesser power while staying as priestly class outside of the varna system.

as much as we like to think, all this is power negotiation, and the ruler constantly had to fight off people jostling for status in hierarchy justifying it with either the manusmriti or their own caste history.

All this created a 1000 castes, and no real affiliation to 'Hindu' religion beyond considering their gods as Hindu gods. a lot of local powerful village gods were incorporated in to Hindu mythology and given a stage in the pantheon of gods. that's how a lot of them became Hindus. The affiliation was mostly to their caste group, and to their family.

unaffiliated means plurality of Indian population that do not even come under the varna system. Like for eg. namashudras, who are a huge chunk of bengalis that were actually children born out of intercaste marriage and hence rejected by the varna system. by the time british came to India, the number of people who identified as not being part of the varna system was a plurality of the population. they were the largest group in India. Hindu is just a term British used to classify non-muslims/non-christians etc.

 

[Raven_Rayes]

22 minutes ago, Kreole_ said:

Atheists or are those who prayed to their village gods? 

 

just like a bunch of people who claim they are telugu today, were tamil even 70yrs ago. my cousin's paternal grandfather was tamil pillai, and now my cousin is pucca karanam boy. don't even know what karanam is. even he doesn't. Its just something his grandfather adopted when he fled from his home. He adopted that identity in fact.

religious population, just like linguistic or ethnic population is a matter of group dynamics. they are constantly in flux, politics can either go with the flow and focus entirely on how people want to define themselves, or put people in boxes and escalate their differences to the point where governing becomes impossible.

pretty sure a lot of muslims today were Hindus few generations ago.. and pretty sure it happened in the reverse too. since people tend to forget that muslim history in India is 1000yrs old. not as old as vedic religion, but Islam is not some new thing in India.

 

[Kreole_]

46 minutes ago, Raven_Rayes said:

most conversions happened to escape Hinduism within last 150yrs

Not a fact, Muslim population during the beginning of 1800s was already at 10-15%. 

[Raven_Rayes]

5 minutes ago, Kreole_ said:

Not a fact, Muslim population during the beginning of 1800s was already at 10-15%. 

and what is it today, if you include Pak/Bang? close to 40%.

[Raven_Rayes]

if you want to strictly define people as Reddy (which is not even a caste name actually, but a caste group with many branches), or as dalit... then it becomes the duty of those that draw those lines to make sure that everyone is treated equally and fairly - unfortunately for guys like veerigadu, it is the bedrock of the modern civilization that his (caste) benefited from, without which it'll be open season on them. (open season antey ento telidhu anukunta errabus veerigadu ki... it means easy to kill Reddys without state support, as was evident during Telangana movement in the 1930s. )

because earlier even under the british who started to catalogue Indian castes, people like my grand uncle changed their castes and were able to move freely. Now its almost impossible. It is hardening of caste/religious attitudes.

I hate this system itself.. but there's no reasonable alternative to this that HIndutva offers. whose aim solely seems to be complete and utter domination of muslims, while also adopting the british way cataloguing castes.

today people are stuck with their identities at birth.. some idiots like veerigadu feel proud of it, some are burdened by that identity, robbing them and their society of their full human potential.

so yes, under these circumstance the liberal solution is to claim 'minority has the first claim to resources'.. if you disagree with this, offer an alternative. There's none.