Raven_Rayes Posted August 18, 2022 Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 2 minutes ago, Telugodura456 said: Hahaha .. why did us not be able to compete with taiwan then ? Why would chinese bother duplicating capital intensive chip industry when they can fab them at cheap in taiwan while focussing on design of the best chips already and making very lucrative and profitable applications of these chips in mobile phone? why compete with an already ultra efficient chip fab industry located in taiwan (already considered china btw). its like usa competing in gorwing date palms to get rid of middle east dependency - makes no sense. Chinese are not leaders in Chip design. all top 10 chip companies in asia are based in Taiwan. Huawei is the only exception. they are not even leaders in product design around the chips. Almost all chinese electronic brands are designed in Taiwan by Qanta or Wistron or Pegatron. heck even US has better product designers than China. what they are leaders in, is low end manufacturing. that's why designing a space station doesn't translate to domination of semiconductor industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven_Rayes Posted August 18, 2022 Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 6 minutes ago, Telugodura456 said: I am talkig about your argument that proximity to west gives you tech compnaies. that wasn't my argument. proximity to western tech does give one expertise in semiconductor manufacturing. something chinese have been denied so far. they are not gonna develop an indigenous semiconductor manfuacturing process. no way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telugodura456 Posted August 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 Just now, Raven_Rayes said: Chinese are not leaders in Chip design. all top 10 chip companies in asia are based in Taiwan. Huawei is the only exception. they are not even leaders in product design around the chips. Almost all chinese electronic brands are designed in Taiwan by Qanta or Wistron or Pegatron. heck even US has better product designers than China. what they are leaders in, is low end manufacturing. that's why designing a space station doesn't translate to domination of semiconductor industry. All evasive and insincere points. i did not say chinese are leaders in chip design - but they design some of the best chips out there. Look up Hisilicon. Again you dont know about chip industry much - i dont think you know the industrrial chain that makes up chip industry. Design is different from fab. But your point is that Taiwanese are competent because they are exposed to west lmao. Then why cant west outcompete taiwainese? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven_Rayes Posted August 18, 2022 Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 @Telugodura456 anyway I can't see any reason why c) should be there. it's a fact that is irrelevant to whether China can take the lead in semiconductor manufacturing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telugodura456 Posted August 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Raven_Rayes said: that wasn't my argument. proximity to western tech does give one expertise in semiconductor manufacturing. something chinese have been denied so far. they are not gonna develop an indigenous semiconductor manfuacturing process. no way. Lol - you said western proximity is the "secret" of taiwanese engineers. I can already sense things are going way over your head. Give it another go - how come taiwanese built awesome fabs beating everyone out there. And why cant chinese - thier next door neighbor cannot ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven_Rayes Posted August 18, 2022 Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Telugodura456 said: All evasive and insincere points. i did not say chinese are leaders in chip design - but they design some of the best chips out there. Look up Hisilicon. Again you dont know about chip industry much - i dont think you know the industrrial chain that makes up chip industry. Design is different from fab. But your point is that Taiwanese are competent because they are exposed to west lmao. Then why cant west outcompete taiwainese? dude, I already said Huawei is the exception, to the rule that chip market is dominated by the US and Taiwanese firms, not the chinese. who said design is the same as fab? who said west can't outcompete Taiwan. they can, and they will. Its China that will be left behind, not the west. that's my entire premise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telugodura456 Posted August 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Raven_Rayes said: dude, I already said Huawei is the exception, to the rule that chip market is dominated by the US and Taiwanese firms, not the chinese. who said design is the same as fab? who said west can't outcompete Taiwan. they can, and they will. Its China that will be left behind, not the west. that's my entire premise. Again - escaping to future. how did taiwan beat intel at fabbing chips NOW ? if the source of competency of taiwanese is their proximity to westness - how did they end up beating one of the most venerated western firms in chip industry in fabbing ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven_Rayes Posted August 18, 2022 Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 4 minutes ago, Telugodura456 said: Lol - you said western proximity is the "secret" of taiwanese engineers. I can already sense things are going way over your head. Give it another go - how come taiwanese built awesome fabs beating everyone out there. And why cant chinese - thier next door neighbor cannot ? taiwanese built better fabs because they had a better business model. simple. TSMC is built not just by the taiwanese, but by collaboration with western tech. US fabs were not pure foundry services, until GlobalFoundries, by which TSMC had already taken a huge lead with clients like Apple exclusively using them. why couldn't Japanese build a humongous semiconductor industry that they dominated until the 2000s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven_Rayes Posted August 18, 2022 Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 5 minutes ago, Telugodura456 said: Again - escaping to future. how did taiwan beat intel at fabbing chips NOW ? if the source of competency of taiwanese is their proximity to westness - how did they end up beating one of the most venerated western firms in chip industry in fabbing ? coz Intel's core business is not fabbing, duh! you want to compare a pure fab, with a company that is a computing platform? GlobalFoundries is the better comparison, and I think it will catch up to TSMC. Intel doesnt have the support of the federal govt (until now) like Samsung does to experiment in areas that are not its core business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telugodura456 Posted August 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 3 minutes ago, Raven_Rayes said: taiwanese built better fabs because they had a better business model. simple. TSMC is built not just by the taiwanese, but by collaboration with western tech. US fabs were not pure foundry services, until GlobalFoundries, by which TSMC had already taken a huge lead with clients like Apple exclusively using them. why couldn't Japanese build a humongous semiconductor industry that they dominated until the 2000s? Oh i see - so its not "decades of proximity to west" as you claimed before. you flipped to a new "simple" explanation. remember this. If Taiwanese have a better business model than anyone in west - then obviously it couldn't have come from west. What is that point about japanese - I never said success in semi conductor industry comes from proximity to Japanese. those weird claims are made by you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven_Rayes Posted August 18, 2022 Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 9 minutes ago, Telugodura456 said: Again - escaping to future. how did taiwan beat intel at fabbing chips NOW ? if the source of competency of taiwanese is their proximity to westness - how did they end up beating one of the most venerated western firms in chip industry in fabbing ? anyway, even with poaching Taiwanese engineers (which it already is furiously doing), China cannot match US in semiconductor industry. anyway the point is, Chinese capabilities in building space station is irrelevant to whether it can/not create a semiconductor behemoth like TSMC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telugodura456 Posted August 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Raven_Rayes said: coz Intel's core business is not fabbing, duh! you want to compare a pure fab, with a company that is a computing platform? GlobalFoundries is the better comparison, and I think it will catch up to TSMC. Intel doesnt have the support of the federal govt (until now) like Samsung does to experiment in areas that are not its core business. LOL - so they are Ok to lose ? they competed with TSMC and lost. They even scapped thier 7 nm plant because they were nowhere getting the yields TSMC is getting them. INTEL subisdy tracker : SUBSIDY SUMMARY SUBSIDY VALUE NUMBER OF AWARDS State/Local $5,915,209,487 99 Federal (grants and allocated tax credits) $89,553,151 32 TOTAL $6,004,762,638 131 LOAN / BAILOUT SUMMARY TOTAL FACE VALUE NUMBER OF AWARDS State/Local loans, bond financing and venture capital $149,995,000 1 Federal loans, loan guarantees and bailout assistance (not including repayments) $141,855,000 1 TOTAL $291,850,000 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telugodura456 Posted August 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 LOl ra narsi @Raven_Rayes - you dont even know the support us govt gives to its companies. I guess you swallowed hook line and sinker - "free market" mantra. Say it again - you are better than me in knowledge of these things? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telugodura456 Posted August 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/intel First subisdy INTEL recieved is 1993. - LMAO @Raven_Rayes - you never lost an arguement? - LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven_Rayes Posted August 18, 2022 Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Telugodura456 said: Oh i see - so its not "decades of proximity to west" as you claimed before. you flipped to a new "simple" explanation. remember this. If Taiwanese have a better business model than anyone in west - then obviously it couldn't have come from west. What is that point about japanese - I never said success in semi conductor industry comes from proximity to Japanese. those weird claims are made by you. Japanese fell behind in semiconductor tech. taiwan's expertise is both a function of western tech, and its business model. given that majority of chip market was in the region, TSMC was in the right place at the right time. yes TSMC's business model to be replicated in the US is very very tricky. but most of the tech in semiconductor tech is a mixture of western and some japanese. you really think Taiwanese came up with TSMC out of the blue? when almost all semiconductor manufacturing before that happened in the US/Japan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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