India starts a fresh attack on chinese mobile companies

[telugu_fan]

11 minutes ago, Telugodura456 said:

You maybe thinking you are saying something clever with china reformed earlier than india therefore it has 10 years gap. But i have heard this garbage theory for decades and believed it too before.

INdia was always open whereas china as a communist country was one of the most heavily sanctioned. They allowed private companies only in mid 70s with an arbitary maximum employee cap of 8 - which was lifted only in mid 80s. Even then no private businessmen was allowed to participate in govt till late 90s.

Meanwhile india had tatas, birlas mahindras for decades. we had vespa (italian) scooters, suzuki cars in 80s itself. we even had coca cola and pepsi cola till 70s. We had constant scientific interaction with west. our initial space rockets were gtiven by west, our nuclear tech came from west and soviets.

Well you must have heard this "garbage theory" many times but apparently you didn't put a lot of thought into it.

How is India open country ( in the sense we are speaking today) when you had a license raaj and a very strict quota of production. Wasn't even the cement bags that were used for Nagarjun Saagar constructione audited and a few bags that were diverted led to the later Congress MP T. Subbiramy Reddy to spend a few days in jail/custody.

We had a lot of private industrialists but they essentially worked in a socialist angle in how much they produce and earn. how much time did it take for a telephone connection or a car or a bajaj chetak to be bought with govt controls. how many manufacturing companies came to India during the so called open India period. India was a socialist country with its outlook that saw wealth creation as a sin, something that is even espoused with many talking heads in the media even today.

People main source of income was a govt job or farming for the most part. Not private sector jobs that many are looking at today.

The comparison with china is that while the chinese might not have coca-colas because they were communist country, they had manufacturing shifting from the US starting from late 70's. while that itself didn't make chinese rich overnight it led to accumulating essential forex that helped chinese to start modernizing infra and developing their country along with providing jobs to a lot of chinese and helping to move them socially upward of which we have started almost 15 years late.

Private businesses were encouraged during Dengs period itself and by late 80's china was a country ruled by communist party and not a fully communist country, otherwise they would have turned like Venezuela or cuba and not the power house they are today.

[Telugodura456]

7 minutes ago, telugu_fan said:

Well you must have heard this "garbage theory" many times but apparently you didn't put a lot of thought into it.

How is India open country ( in the sense we are speaking today) when you had a license raaj and a very strict quota of production. Wasn't even the cement bags that were used for Nagarjun Saagar constructione audited and a few bags that were diverted led to the later Congress MP T. Subbiramy Reddy to spend a few days in jail/custody.

We had a lot of private industrialists but they essentially worked in a socialist angle in how much they produce and earn. how much time did it take for a telephone connection or a car or a bajaj chetak to be bought with govt controls. how many manufacturing companies came to India during the so called open India period. India was a socialist country with its outlook that saw wealth creation as a sin, something that is even espoused with many talking heads in the media even today.

People main source of income was a govt job or farming for the most part. Not private sector jobs that many are looking at today.

The comparison with china is that while the chinese might not have coca-colas because they were communist country, they had manufacturing shifting from the US starting from late 70's. while that itself didn't make chinese rich overnight it led to accumulating essential forex that helped chinese to start modernizing infra and developing their country along with providing jobs to a lot of chinese and helping to move them socially upward of which we have started almost 15 years late.

Private businesses were encouraged during Dengs period itself and by late 80's china was a country ruled by communist party and not a fully communist country, otherwise they would have turned like Venezuela or cuba and not the power house they are today.

There was licensing yes - that does not mean it was closed. india has full access to technology.

What china did - an export oriented model using its labor - was available to india from 60s. It was done by korea, malaysia and even now vietnam is beating india in this model. No - no manufacturing automatically "shifted' anywhere. it was chinese society with their literacy, health, equality, dignity that allowed them to capitalize the oppurtunity. They would have gotten rich us or not. 

Regarding private business in china - i already gave you dates. How is restricting a private company to 8 employees till 80s - "encouraging" them ?

 

[telugu_fan]

25 minutes ago, Telugodura456 said:

what is apple complying with ? Apple does not do manufacturing whereas these companies and thats their core differentiaror. lets see if india can order apple to design some of its componenets here or transfer its ip of the phones to tata or birla.

Our entire social internet and social media is in foreign hands. Could india force any of them to even open data centers ? 

Outsourcing in india is just a service industry for americans. Despite 30 years of this industry there is no software market in india. 

THe briliiance of CBN is obvious when you see how junk india really is and how he managed to save lakhs of people - many in this forum itself from india by opening us a direct channel with america/

 

Apple have partners through which Apple Iphone is manufactured and the chinese companies also follow the same model (you might already know that so your comment is just semantics). Apple refused to do iphone production in India and requested a waiver for the tariff on imported cell phones which they argued tooth and nail. After quite exhaustive discussions they were given tax breaks that is linked to PLI scheme of manufacturing and then further breaks when there is local substitution which is another name for sourcing components locally so that companies that are formed here with JV or partners of Apple establish subsidiaries to do the same.

The brilliance of CBN is utilizing what was in front of him in globalization and outsourcing and establishing an IT hub in Hyderabad while competing with Benguluru that was the first choice in those days. The fact that you think he opened a link with America tells me you know nothing other than treating CBN next to god. First find out what CBN did and why he did that (establishing Hightech City, increasing engineering colleges and all that). There are quite a few reasons that are not germane to this thread to go in detail.

Btw, you still haven't answered on the cunning nature or the unethical behavior or the chinese insisting that Western companies to tie up with local chinese companies to get market access in china as you so eloquently accused the Indian govt here

[telugu_fan]

8 minutes ago, Telugodura456 said:

There was licensing yes - that does not mean it was closed. india has full access to technology.

What china did - an export oriented model using its labor - was available to india from 60s. It was done by korea, malaysia and even now vietnam is beating india in this model. No - no manufacturing automatically "shifted' anywhere. it was chinese society with their literacy, health, equality, dignity that allowed them to capitalize the oppurtunity. They would have gotten rich us or not. 

Regarding private business in china - i already gave you dates. How is restricting a private company to 8 employees till 80s - "encouraging" them ?

 

There was license Raaj - the govt decided how many products would be manufactured, they can say only 1500 ambassador cars fro that year and only that many would be produced to quote an example. this is text book case of socialist country, saying india was open and all that is like saying China is a communist country now (it isn't, its only ruled by the CCP).

India didn't have direct access to technology then. Can you pray and tell what tech India had in the 60's, 70's and 80's of its own or through joint ventures. What precious foreign reserves it had it spent on buying arms and doing space research with France and UK. What ever India had was to be bought or payed through precious foreign reserves, something we ran out of by the end of 80's. American govt love towards Indira was well known after the 1971 war.

Export oriented model using labor being available to India is not the same as being in use. the govt of the day decided western capitalism (specifically American model wasn't for India and that was the end of it). Nehru brought his mixed market which was mostly tilted to socialism and Indira Gandhi went the full hog nationalizing everything.

Korea, Malaysia (or maybe you mean singapore) are not the same as they essentially went under American security umbrella for the tech transferred to them (especially the Koreans). Was India doing the same?

Vietnam doesn't really compute because most of the chinese companies moved their products to the border Vietnam towns ( where the raw materials or products transported through the river) where they assembled the same stuff and shipped out to beat the tariffs imposed by trump admin. After covid a few of these became permanent with china +1 model.

Something India has also been trying to get done since before covid but received support with the supply chain disruptions.

[Telugodura456]

1 hour ago, telugu_fan said:

There was license Raaj - the govt decided how many products would be manufactured, they can say only 1500 ambassador cars fro that year and only that many would be produced to quote an example. this is text book case of socialist country, saying india was open and all that is like saying China is a communist country now (it isn't, its only ruled by the CCP).

India didn't have direct access to technology then. Can you pray and tell what tech India had in the 60's, 70's and 80's of its own or through joint ventures. What precious foreign reserves it had it spent on buying arms and doing space research with France and UK. What ever India had was to be bought or payed through precious foreign reserves, something we ran out of by the end of 80's. American govt love towards Indira was well known after the 1971 war.

Export oriented model using labor being available to India is not the same as being in use. the govt of the day decided western capitalism (specifically American model wasn't for India and that was the end of it). Nehru brought his mixed market which was mostly tilted to socialism and Indira Gandhi went the full hog nationalizing everything.

Korea, Malaysia (or maybe you mean singapore) are not the same as they essentially went under American security umbrella for the tech transferred to them (especially the Koreans). Was India doing the same?

Vietnam doesn't really compute because most of the chinese companies moved their products to the border Vietnam towns ( where the raw materials or products transported through the river) where they assembled the same stuff and shipped out to beat the tariffs imposed by trump admin. After covid a few of these became permanent with china +1 model.

Something India has also been trying to get done since before covid but received support with the supply chain disruptions.

You have lot of grievances on behalf of india (another matter that this india does not have any respect for your language or your presence) and it seems you want to take revenge on those grievances now by stealing from china. And you think this will fix everything.

What technology india did not have ? it detonated nuclear bomb in 1974, sent pslv rockets with licensed european rocket engines (Vikas). It was making cars, scooters, fridges, tv in 80s. what india did not have is a decent moral society which can organize itself in egalatarian and modern way for industrial production.

China was competing on toys and cheap plastic utensil up to late 2000s in export market. Are you saying india did not have tech for stuffed toys ?

You seem to be anti communism but at the same time you have no respect for capitalism as well. you want to copy what you think as unethical practices of china. And want india to steal its way to riches.

 

[telugu_fan]

1 hour ago, Telugodura456 said:

You have lot of grievances on behalf of india (another matter that this india does not have any respect for your language or your presence) and it seems you want to take revenge on those grievances now by stealing from china. And you think this will fix everything.

What technology india did not have ? it detonated nuclear bomb in 1974, sent pslv rockets with licensed european rocket engines (Vikas). It was making cars, scooters, fridges, tv in 80s. what india did not have is a decent moral society which can organize itself in egalatarian and modern way for industrial production.

China was competing on toys and cheap plastic utensil up to late 2000s in export market. Are you saying india did not have tech for stuffed toys ?

You seem to be anti communism but at the same time you have no respect for capitalism as well. you want to copy what you think as unethical practices of china. And want india to steal its way to riches.

 

After failing to answer how china is ethical while you called India cunning and trying to steal from china for what exactly China did in asking for the western countries to set up tech (in this case wind turbine manufacturing tech) you have been running various other arguments.

Can you just answer the above question?

What my feeling towards India and china is not the topic of discussion for this thread either. what I feel about Capitalism, Socialism, or anything else is also not the topic of discussion for this thread either. And if its any consolation, you are wildly off base in your estimation/remarks.

Detonating nuclear bomb, making space engines are all good. but you barely had any indigenous manufacturing base, that is the crux of the argument.

China was in a similar or slightly worse position (china also detonated nuclear bomb before us and had some industries set up with USSR help before the Ussuri clashes strained the relations between them),  They then got manufacturing established with the US shifting factories and later Japan collaborating to really help China economy take off. India stayed the same till it opened economy and got required Forex and FDI to set things up. China took care of basic infra in the mid to late 90's which we are addressing now.

The fact that India doesn't have own tech causes it to seek JV all the time, even though we manufactured fiat, ambassador, maruti and TV and fridges that we still didn't have any engine or core tech. Tata had joint venture with Cummins to use a de-rated engines for Indian roads. All of this show up when India wants to move on its own even now in defense or civilian sectors.

What ever India manufactured was mostly used for local consumption and that was again regulated with license, so neither could you negotiate for a better deal to bring economies of scale.

[Telugodura456]

1 hour ago, telugu_fan said:

After failing to answer how china is ethical while you called India cunning and trying to steal from china for what exactly China did in asking for the western countries to set up tech (in this case wind turbine manufacturing tech) you have been running various other arguments.

Can you just answer the above question?

What my feeling towards India and china is not the topic of discussion for this thread either. what I feel about Capitalism, Socialism, or anything else is also not the topic of discussion for this thread either. And if its any consolation, you are wildly off base in your estimation/remarks.

Detonating nuclear bomb, making space engines are all good. but you barely had any indigenous manufacturing base, that is the crux of the argument.

China was in a similar or slightly worse position (china also detonated nuclear bomb before us and had some industries set up with USSR help before the Ussuri clashes strained the relations between them),  They then got manufacturing established with the US shifting factories and later Japan collaborating to really help China economy take off. India stayed the same till it opened economy and got required Forex and FDI to set things up. China took care of basic infra in the mid to late 90's which we are addressing now.

The fact that India doesn't have own tech causes it to seek JV all the time, even though we manufactured fiat, ambassador, maruti and TV and fridges that we still didn't have any engine or core tech. Tata had joint venture with Cummins to use a de-rated engines for Indian roads. All of this show up when India wants to move on its own even now in defense or civilian sectors.

What ever India manufactured was mostly used for local consumption and that was again regulated with license, so neither could you negotiate for a better deal to bring economies of scale.

what is your arguement - that we are doing to china what china did to america in another era in another technology ? - thats it ? a childish argument because someone did something somewhere we must also do.

and because china has been succcesful then - are you claiming india will be succesful now ? i think you dont even care about success. Just some childish - "vallu akkada inko vishayam lo chesaaru ...manam ikkada chesthe thappenti".

Factories came everywhere from malaysia to singapore to korea . But India imports even guns from UAE. 

[Kreole_]

13 hours ago, psycopk said:

Burra unna vadiki telustadi.. nee laa goreela manda la unnavalaki kastam ee le.. nuvvu oogi po

Gorrela mandha gurinchi mana thaatha matladuthunnadu.. Hilarious I say...

[telugu_fan]

1 hour ago, Telugodura456 said:

what is your arguement - that we are doing to china what china did to america in another era in another technology ? - thats it ? a childish argument because someone did something somewhere we must also do.

and because china has been succcesful then - are you claiming india will be succesful now ? i think you dont even care about success. Just some childish - "vallu akkada inko vishayam lo chesaaru ...manam ikkada chesthe thappenti".

Factories came everywhere from malaysia to singapore to korea . But India imports even guns from UAE. 

My argument/point is that you called India cunning and trying to cheat chinese companies while giving a free pass to china that has been indulging in the same practices with the western ones and the links below point the same in 2015-2018 time frame as well. that is not some other era as you are trying to pass off. Wind turbine technology is not in some distant past. Every country makes laws to help their interests and that is the bottom line.

You would know that if you read the link given before, but I guess you know it all when it comes to China.

You can read the 4th link which is the South China Morning Post which is Chinese affiliated news if you feel the western sources are biased.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/business/global/15chinawind.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/cbusiness-us-china-eu-idCAKCN1SQ0I7-OCABS

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/15/business/china-technology-transfer.html

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/2181528/us-right-cry-foul-about-forced-technology-transfer-do-business

India will do what it wants and feels is in its best interests. If chinese companies feel that they can't transfer or from JV with local companies, they can manufacture in china and export to india paying the import tariffs. 

[Telugodura456]

11 hours ago, telugu_fan said:

My argument/point is that you called India cunning and trying to cheat chinese companies while giving a free pass to china that has been indulging in the same practices with the western ones and the links below point the same in 2015-2018 time frame as well. that is not some other era as you are trying to pass off. Wind turbine technology is not in some distant past. Every country makes laws to help their interests and that is the bottom line.

You would know that if you read the link given before, but I guess you know it all when it comes to China.

You can read the 4th link which is the South China Morning Post which is Chinese affiliated news if you feel the western sources are biased.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/business/global/15chinawind.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/cbusiness-us-china-eu-idCAKCN1SQ0I7-OCABS

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/15/business/china-technology-transfer.html

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/2181528/us-right-cry-foul-about-forced-technology-transfer-do-business

India will do what it wants and feels is in its best interests. If chinese companies feel that they can't transfer or from JV with local companies, they can manufacture in china and export to india paying the import tariffs. 

You are repeating the same thing. "China did unethical things in some unrelated issues, we will copy china and therefore become rich like china". This childish immoral world view is common among indian nationalists.

they think everything in world is about chanakya neethi and crookery. Crookery succeeds. we failed because we are not crook enough (LOL).