The state of dalit ideologues in India

[CanadianMalodu]

2 hours ago, laxmiparvathin said:

Self obsessed upper caste arrogant fellows will feel everything revolves around them and their caste anna. 

If you follow Tryad, then you are bound to be dependent on the state for your entire existence and just sit on sidelines. No one is revolving around anyone.

[Tryad]

14 minutes ago, CanadianMalodu said:

#1 Feed everyone in India? How? If you give food, that's a commodity, that's not a resource. Should you give them farm, then that's resource and you don't have infinite land to give everyone of them. Even if you did, it doesn't mean those that got it will keep it. Healthcare needs again both budgets, policy and trained resources and they are finite again. Free healthcare doesn't work the that you want it to Canada is a prime example for that. I very know the flaws of this system and how inefficient it has been.

You don't need infinite land to feed a 1.4 billion people.. with efficient farming less than 10% of India's land would be enough to feed everyone.

again, I'm not advocating going for command control sh1t economy of pre 1991.. I'm happy with the private enterprise, but clearly private enterprise hasn't completely solved the problem of poverty in India.. shouldn't govt intervene to do it by expanding its resources?

India doesn't even have basic healthcare, and you are comparing India to an advanced nation like Canada. The public healthcare is literally unusable in major parts of the country.

all these are failures of policy in India, and have nothing to do with colonial loot that happened 100yrs ago. people who believe that are definitely playing the victim card. don't you think?

19 minutes ago, CanadianMalodu said:

#2  The job of private enterprise is to generate profit for themselves not be altruistic. It's a choice to participate in the enterprise as a partner or an employee is the subject to the will of an individual.

so?

20 minutes ago, CanadianMalodu said:

#3 Why is having caste name against individualism? A person can have multiple identities. Individual and collective identities can co-exist.

yeah, you can have individual identities like being a dad, mom, uncle, etc.. you can't be Indian, kamma, Telugu, Tamil, and claim you are an individualist. Its like you want to have the cake and eat it too.

21 minutes ago, CanadianMalodu said:

#4 Again, the number will vary because of gap in generation wealth, but I myself know at least 3 malas who are engaged in enterprising activity of which 1 made to the tune 50 crore INR plus by being a relator and builder. I personally know one Madiga MLA who made upwards of 100 Crore and now owns two factories that manufacture APIs. He used political power to and gain wealth and came from nothing. 

and that proves what? that is my question dude.

you want other malas to replicate what he did, or suck up to him in the hope that he'd throw some bones to them? which is it?

this is simply poor argumentation, where you claim that just because one person made it, the rest in that community should stop availaing reservation and then??? run for political office?? all of them?

25 minutes ago, CanadianMalodu said:

#6 Perceptions are dynamic and are bound to change with time. Nadars of Tamil nadu are an example of this. In Andhra and Telangana money talks more than your caste on a day to day basis. Not to say caste doesn't matter, but also doesn't mean that it's only caste that matters Everytime. One needs to grow out of this mindset.

all examples you give happened in the 50s, and we are living in the 2020s.

how to grow out of that mindset, if you a self declared half mala, keeps bringing up how so and so caste were successful. So does one want to grow as an individual, or as part of a larger caste group?

27 minutes ago, CanadianMalodu said:

#7 Achieving self sufficiency  and then capital surplus is of paramount importance. Reservations are crutch, not the solution. Giving up reservation doesn't imply not prospering and living in poverty, you need to learn the difference

sure reservations are almost negligible and immaterial in today's world. but the examples you gave of successful malas are all either ones that benefited from reservations, or from political power.

sure there may be that odd mala who made it on his own, but it seems tone deaf to ask malas to give up their right to representation in exchange to being serfs to the capitalists.

its atleast acceptable in a country that has consistent increase in per capita income.. But India still has pathetic median income, and it seems cruel to ask malas to not organize politically and ask for their rights to live a decent life, just because you made it in life, and want others to respect you as a mala, as much as they respect you as a kamma.

 

[Tryad]

11 minutes ago, CanadianMalodu said:

If you follow Tryad, then you are bound to be dependent on the state for your entire existence and just sit on sidelines. No one is revolving around anyone.

actually if you follow me, you are bound to want to overthrow the system, steal patents, opensource designs, create manufacturing networks free of owner control, basically be a fugitive in order to give it back to the 'capitalist' leeches..

I prefer free market over everything.. but the state has monopolized a heck of resources, and refuses to use it to benefit its people, instead play silly power games to choose the winners.. In such a scenario, there's nothing to do other than to nudge the state to remind that people outside of their silly games do exist.

you seem to like the game, and have mastered it. Doesn't make you better than anyone.. just better at that particular capitalist game. The game can change anytime.

 

[Tryad]

23 minutes ago, CanadianMalodu said:

Arrogance comes from power. The problem is why should SCs depend on KCR for being a chief minister ? Remember Power will never be given. Power needs to be taken. Only when all the scheduled caste voters realize this, only then shall it happen. KCR took the power by force in the name of Telagana self respect movement, but in reality he wanted Velama Doras led by him to rule.  

so how do you think dalits can take power?

[CanadianMalodu]

18 hours ago, Tryad said:

actually if you follow me, you are bound to want to overthrow the system, steal patents, opensource designs, create manufacturing networks free of owner control, basically be a fugitive in order to give it back to the 'capitalist' leeches..

I prefer free market over everything.. but the state has monopolized a heck of resources, and refuses to use it to benefit its people, instead play silly power games to choose the winners.. In such a scenario, there's nothing to do other than to nudge the state to remind that people outside of their silly games do exist.

you seem to like the game, and have mastered it. Doesn't make you better than anyone.. just better at that particular capitalist game. The game can change anytime.

 

You can only overthrow system through an armed rebellion , even then you don't know if you'd build a supposedly better system. There is no egalitarianism in any power structure, such is the nature and construct of power. Ideas of stealing patents and removal of control is aka removal of ownership will only stunt enterprise and in a consequent exit of investment. That's in stark contrast to your statement of 'free market'. Where did you see state monopolization of resources? Which context are your talking about? If it's in India , state is letting go of control, not monopolizing it. If any your statements appear paradoxical.

[Tryad]

1 hour ago, CanadianMalodu said:

This is absolutely true but for some reason Tryad isn't able to comprehend that. People of agrarian castes Kammas, Kapus and Rajus used the wealth surplus from agriculture and moved it into enterprise and prospered. However, due the sheer number of Kapus, there are many who hasn't prospered to a greater degree. All this involved, a pattern of migration from villages to cities and then to abroad in quest for opportunity. Tryad doesn't seem to understand this 

lmao. this assumes a lot of variables.. like SCs have wealth surplus they can use to move to enterprise.. and that the overall society doesn't practice casteism.. Not just brahmins, every part of Hindu society practices untouchability, and you expect SCs to magically prosper in an enterprise, because you managed to land a job in a corporate?

 

 

[CanadianMalodu]

6 minutes ago, Tryad said:

so how do you think dalits can take power?

If by dalits you mean just scheduled castes, then it's alone not possible. Scheduled Castes needs a partnership with other castes like BCs and even some forward castes, to make it happen. Even then the power shall be shared but with a SC centric figure in power. The precedence in Andhra is Damodaram sanjeeviah, but the power got stuck with Reddies, because Damaodram Sanjeeviah didn't build financial resources to sustain in politics. Mayawati was able to usurp power, but then she still has Brahmins to support her.  She was power centre during her regime.

[Tryad]

5 minutes ago, CanadianMalodu said:

You can only overthrow system through an armed rebellion , even then you don't know if you'd build a supposedly better system. There is no egalitarianism in any power structure, such is the nature and construct of power. Ideas of stealing parents and removal of control is aka removal of ownership will only stunt enterprise and in a consequent exit of investment. That's in stark contrast to your statement of 'free market'. Where did you see state monopolization of resources? Which context are your talking about? If it's in India , state is letting go of control, not monopolizing it. If any your statements appear paradoxical.

armed rebellions are guaranteed to replace the existing system with a new system run by new assholes. there's no need for an armed rebellion. Just an open source movement in software was enough to shift an entire sector of economy, and create free flow of information and ideas. That is more radical than any armed rebellions. And I'm not even talking of the trillions of dollars it has generated.

state has monopolized brutal violence - resources to maintain control of law and order.. the state is going to use that always in defense of the capitalists.. So in such an environment there's no 'free market'. Its already biased on the side of the owner, except in areas like s/w and some parts of tech where some level free competition still exists..

by 'removal' of ownership, I mostly mean being a self owner, collaborating with others to make products in a way that is not centralized to benefit one owner, and instead a chain of self owners.

 

 

[CanadianMalodu]

3 minutes ago, Tryad said:

lmao. this assumes a lot of variables.. like SCs have wealth surplus they can use to move to enterprise.. and that the overall society doesn't practice casteism.. Not just brahmins, every part of Hindu society practices untouchability, and you expect SCs to magically prosper in an enterprise, because you managed to land a job in a corporate?

 

 

Nah, I have my inheritance as well. Not just hanging onto corporate job. To have surplus one needs to grow out of poverty and debt enslavement.  Untouchability was outlawed, and doesn't manifest in a way to obstruct opportunities like pre independence. It also depends on the will of the individuals. People are marrying across castes, both upper and lower, opening up economy has changed the dynamics. 

[Tryad]

5 minutes ago, CanadianMalodu said:

If by dalits you mean just scheduled castes, then it's alone not possible. Scheduled Castes needs a partnership with other castes like BCs and even some forward castes, to make it happen. Even then the power shall be shared but with a SC centric figure in power. The precedence in Andhra is Damodaram sanjeeviah, but the power got stuck with Reddies, because Damaodram Sanjeeviah didn't build financial resources to sustain in politics. Mayawati was able to usurp power, but then she still has Brahmins to support her.  She was power centre during her regime.

okay. Why do you think dalits haven't been able to do this?

and what does this have to do with giving up reservations? do you think giving up reservations is going to give a lot of goodwill for dalits in India?

you do realise that majority (almost all) dalits get elected only because they have reservations in parliament and assembly? without that, the dalits in politics would be close to negligible.

 

[Tryad]

26 minutes ago, CanadianMalodu said:

Nah, I have my inheritance as well. Not just hanging onto corporate job. To have surplus one needs to grow out of poverty and debt enslavement.  Untouchability was outlawed, and doesn't manifest in a way to obstruct opportunities like pre independence. It also depends on the will of the individuals. People are marrying across castes, both upper and lower, opening up economy has changed the dynamics. 

so you are basically a loaded half mala, that wants other malas to give up reservations, hmmm... I wonder how other malas receive your suggestion.

lets wait for the census 2021 figures to come out, to see how much wealth malas had built in the last 10yrs, after 30yrs of economy opening up. until then, your personal anecdotes mean nothing, when in India untouchability still is practiced.

even if what you say is true for malas, there are other SC castes that need state support. So nothing you believe in is actually actionable by anyone apart from few select loaded people.

Its perfectly fine to depend on the state for everything, since state stops you from engaging in many activities like farming a land (because it is part of 10000s of acres of land that someone owns. etc)

people are not lazy.. They are just not attuned to the demands of a capitalist society, that urges people to turn on each other and play silly one upmanship games. You may feel that such people don't deserve to have a decent shake in society, but that's not the view many share.

 

 

 

[CanadianMalodu]

3 minutes ago, Tryad said:

okay. Why do you think dalits haven't been able to do this?

and what does this have to do with giving up reservations? do you think giving up reservations is going to give a lot of goodwill for dalits in India?

you do realise that majority (almost all) dalits get elected only because they have reservations in parliament and assembly? without that, the dalits in politics would be close to negligible.

 

Giving up reservations mean, you don't need a crutch to grow in life, that doesn't mean loosing rightful representation.  For a SC to contest from a general constituency means spending a lot more financial resources and get not assured of victory. Such precedence was already there in Uttar Pradesh, even BJP and Congress did that in the past. It will be done in future too, provided a right leader with charisma appears. I think from Khammam District Malli Bhatti will have that chance from Congress if Madhira becomes general. Same can be said for Gaddam Vivek. That's to be seen.

[Tryad]

8 minutes ago, CanadianMalodu said:

Giving up reservations mean, you don't need a crutch to grow in life, that doesn't mean loosing rightful representation.  For a SC to contest from a general constituency means spending a lot more financial resources and get not assured of victory. Such precedence was already there in Uttar Pradesh, even BJP and Congress did that in the past. It will be done in future too, provided a right leader with charisma appears. I think from Khammam District Malli Bhatti will have that chance from Congress if Madhira becomes general. Same can be said for Gaddam Vivek. That's to be seen.

yeah you just need state to either give you contracts(which it mostly wont), plush positions, or be elected to grow in life. but ofcourse those are not crutches, even if one is elected from a reserved constituency.

understood. have a great life.

[CanadianMalodu]

1 hour ago, Tryad said:

so you are basically a loaded half mala, that wants other malas to give up reservations, hmmm... I wonder how other malas receive your suggestion.

lets wait for the census 2021 figures to come out, to see how much wealth malas had built in the last 10yrs, after 30yrs of economy opening up. until then, your personal anecdotes mean nothing, when in India untouchability still is practiced.

even if what you say is true for malas, there are other SC castes that need state support. So nothing you believe in is actually actionable by anyone apart from few select loaded people.

Its perfectly fine to depend on the state for everything, since state stops you from engaging in many activities like farming a land (because it is part of 10000s of acres of land that someone owns. etc)

people are not lazy.. They are just not attuned to the demands of a capitalist society, that urges people to turn on each other and play silly one upmanship games. You may feel that such people don't deserve to have a decent shake in society, but that's not the view many share.

 

 

 

Relying on census is stupid. Do you think the builder that I said will say he amassed 50+cr, that he has 50 cr? Or the MLA that has 100+ cr that they own that much ?  I wouldn't declare my net worth on market price, registration and stamp duties differ from real value.

[CanadianMalodu]

5 hours ago, Tryad said:

You don't need infinite land to feed a 1.4 billion people.. with efficient farming less than 10% of India's land would be enough to feed everyone.

again, I'm not advocating going for command control sh1t economy of pre 1991.. I'm happy with the private enterprise, but clearly private enterprise hasn't completely solved the problem of poverty in India.. shouldn't govt intervene to do it by expanding its resources?

India doesn't even have basic healthcare, and you are comparing India to an advanced nation like Canada. The public healthcare is literally unusable in major parts of the country.

all these are failures of policy in India, and have nothing to do with colonial loot that happened 100yrs ago. people who believe that are definitely playing the victim card. don't you think?

so?

yeah, you can have individual identities like being a dad, mom, uncle, etc.. you can't be Indian, kamma, Telugu, Tamil, and claim you are an individualist. Its like you want to have the cake and eat it too.

and that proves what? that is my question dude.

you want other malas to replicate what he did, or suck up to him in the hope that he'd throw some bones to them? which is it?

this is simply poor argumentation, where you claim that just because one person made it, the rest in that community should stop availaing reservation and then??? run for political office?? all of them?

all examples you give happened in the 50s, and we are living in the 2020s.

how to grow out of that mindset, if you a self declared half mala, keeps bringing up how so and so caste were successful. So does one want to grow as an individual, or as part of a larger caste group?

sure reservations are almost negligible and immaterial in today's world. but the examples you gave of successful malas are all either ones that benefited from reservations, or from political power.

sure there may be that odd mala who made it on his own, but it seems tone deaf to ask malas to give up their right to representation in exchange to being serfs to the capitalists.

its atleast acceptable in a country that has consistent increase in per capita income.. But India still has pathetic median income, and it seems cruel to ask malas to not organize politically and ask for their rights to live a decent life, just because you made it in life, and want others to respect you as a mala, as much as they respect you as a kamma.

 

#1 Do you or did you ever own a farm ? What's the acreage ?  What's the efficient method that you're are proposing ? and how much has that improved your yield?

 

#2 That's wrong, the wealth that's robbed of this country was to the tune of over $40 trillion, we're still a$2.5 trillion country. Wouldn't you think , our living standards would have been a lot more better had this wealth stayed in India? Why do you think islamists and Europeans came to India in the first place ?

#3 No poor argument. Those that  benefitted once in a lifetime should let their children leave it, don't need to have crutch for generations together. 

#4 Government can't expand it's resources unless  it raises taxes, which again robs individuals of wealth especially the salaried class. This is why Indian middle class is overburdened.

#5 I want malas to prosper through enterprise instead of getting in a rut of holding a crutch for their entire existence. There are many class I officers, few businessman from Malas not to the same extent of Kammas or reddies but they are there and doing well. If you're unaware that's alright. 

#6 what examples from 50's did I give? Babumohan earned his way through movies, he won on reserved seats in politics, but his wealth is from movies, what do you imply? Chandrababu's wealth came from politics not from agriculture, he just inherited 2 acres of land. Holding position of power is holding wealth. I'm doing good on my own. At the rate of my earning, leaving inheritance aside and rest  of my investments aside I pool 50 lpa in savings from my salary alone. I should be self sufficient in few years, and then rest would keep building my assets and bring passive income. I may not be rich to the tune of tens of crores, but my buck gives me a good upper Middle class std. of living. There are many out there like me. Giving up reservation doesn't mean giving up right to representation, you can contest in any election and heck win it even, but it's a tougher battle not impossible. There are many across India, then there is a DICC (Dalit Indian Chamber of commerce) , which lists many success stories, who made it to tens of millions of $ in net worth.